Two Yosemite articles - overcrowding and mule riding

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Wandering Daisy
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Re: Two Yosemite articles - overcrowding and mule riding

Post by Wandering Daisy »

I too would hate to see packers a thing of the past, even if I never use their services. In fact, I bet they could be considered a "historical monument" of sorts. Personally, I really do not like riding a horse. When I used packers in the past, I spent more than half the miles walking my horse.

Not just a good deal for old age, but a real bonus for a family with small children. And the disabled. Incredibly helpful if hunting big game. And of course, resupplying trail crews. Packers also do a lot of volunteer trail work themselves. When the McGee Creek trail washed out last year, the packers were up there building a detour and clearing the trail.
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Re: Two Yosemite articles - overcrowding and mule riding

Post by rightstar76 »

We definitely need packers. As AlmostThere points out, they are invaluable to trail building. And a whole bunch of other things in the backcountry like markskor and WD mention.
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Re: Two Yosemite articles - overcrowding and mule riding

Post by Wandering Daisy »

Just wanted to mention that the pricing cited in the article on mule packing is a bit deceptive. $230 per mule, does not take into account that a mule does not go up the trail by itself and meet you with supplies! A mule is lead by a wrangler (his own wages needed) and his horse. And there is that small print $500 minimum.

And talk of the John Muir days- it is well known that even though a lot of visitors in that time used pack horses, it is less known that Yosemite was for the most part, a playground of the elite and wealthy. Certainly not the common man. The common man did not even have a way to get there in the first place! Besides, he was working 12+ hours a day, 7 days a week.

So before we get all teary eyed over the past, we should realize that for most of us, access is much better now. And THAT is why there is crowding. I would rather deal with the localized crowding than go back to the days were I would not be able to even get there.
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Re: Two Yosemite articles - overcrowding and mule riding

Post by rightstar76 »

That's what I found out each time I inquired about the price. The guide and horse, plus our horses. If you really want to go far, the guide has to spend the night before returning the next day. Then it's double the day rate. I didn't realize why it's so expensive, but now I understand why. I hadn't thought about the fact that horses need to be taken care of year round which costs money. And feed as well. WD, thanks for your insights on the packing business.

Interesting point you make, back in the 1870s when Muir was galavanting around the Sierra, it wasn't easy to get there. And most of the people who did were extremely wealthy. John Muir was very lucky to be able to make a living in the valley.
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Re: Two Yosemite articles - overcrowding and mule riding

Post by balzaccom »

When we bought our old house in Napa, we were given a journal kept by the family that owned it back in the late 1800s and early 1900s. They organized a trip to "the Yosemite" in the very early 1900's. It took them a week each way in a wagon pulled by two horses. The whole family (mom, dad, kids and a grandpa, as I recall) slept out by the wagon for the whole round trip. But when the got to Yosemite, they didn't do much more than explore the valley on foot--no pack trips into the high country.
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Re: Two Yosemite articles - overcrowding and mule riding

Post by SNOOOOW »

markskor wrote:
SNOOOOW wrote:So after saying that, bye bye packers is all I can hope for. I really doubt most people will miss those guys.
Respectfully disagree.
As age takes over...(always wins), nothing like having some beginning aid when embarking on those 15-day, extended, Sierra backpacking/fishing trips. Hiking with Mike, the OldRanger, has taught me this wisdom.

Spot packing (being dropped off), one day of riding in and having mules haul our 45 pound packs up, gaining 3,000 feet of elevation and 12 miles in to start out...works for me! Years ago, something I never would have considered ...now seems the wiser decision. Without the packers, we would not have been able to start out or complete the last 6 years of epic adventures.

BTW, on our last No. Yosemite, 2+week adventure, (a spot pack out of Virginia Lake), my share was $300 plus tip. This may seem expensive to some but to others, not so much.
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Very good point Mark, I can definitely see my thought process changing the older I get but as of now I cannot justify the cost nor could I explain it to my Wife unless they were carrying HER stuff and even then I think she would opt out of the trip vs spending that much $$. As far as trail building goes, I would not stop going into the wilderness if we got rid of packers and the trails stopped being maintained. I enjoy off trail jaunts as most of us here do and no trail crews would just mean slower pace of travel.

This is just my opinion, as well as most people I backpack with, and nothing more.
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Re: Two Yosemite articles - overcrowding and mule riding

Post by Wandering Daisy »

Respectfully disagree! We take access trails for granted. Sure, we can all easily do without once we get into the mountains jaunting x-country from one trail to another. It is the lower country that is tough without trails- brush, manzanita, etc. Likely would double your time to get to your destination.

About 40 years ago, the Wind River Indian Reservation quit maintaining most trails. Only a few that are maintained by outfitters to their most lucrative fishing spots, still remain. I spent two summers ago walking a lot of those old overgrown trails. Pretty rough to get thorough until you break out above timber. Most trails are littered with deadfall (devastating bark beetle kill there) to the point where you have to take off your pack and scoot under or climb over. And it does not take long. Two years since one outfitter retired and quit maintaining one of the main trails, deadfall accumulated. The WRIR wilderness is much smaller than the Sierra, particularly the Sierra west side approaches. I was able to get to my destinations, with probably an extra day travel and a WHOLE LOT MORE misery. But I think that no trails on the west side of the Sierra may be a real barrier to getting into the mountains.

There are some positives; such as weeding out the less qualified; definitely no crowding here! (also helps to have a significant entry fee). Regardless of how fancy your GPS you have to have real woodsman skills to micro-navigate through trails not maintained in decades. So I do have mixed feelings about trails. But definitely appreciate the lower elevation trails that allow me to quickly get to where I then wander off-trail. If we start picking and choosing what WE think is a valid in multi-use wilderness, beware that someone else would love to eliminate OUR activities!
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Re: Two Yosemite articles - overcrowding and mule riding

Post by rightstar76 »

AlmostThere spends a lot of time removing deadfall from trails and doing general maintenance. Also, a lot of time coordinating horse packers bringing in supplies as well as helping put together volunteer trail crews. This used to be paid for by USFS. Now most of it's done through sweat and fundraising. I value having well maintained trails that won't disappear next season. I thank AlmostThere and all the people who give their time and money voluntarily to keep our trails functional. Agree WD that if the powers that be had their way, there would be few trails left. Probably few campgrounds as well and the roads to them would crumble (some of them already are).
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Re: Two Yosemite articles - overcrowding and mule riding

Post by AlmostThere »

"Don't mind a little cross country." Well, okay then. How do you feel about jungle crawling through miles of fallen trees?

Because there will be canyons like that. And think about the High Sierra Trail - a shelf on a hill. A few really big pine trees, and you do absolutely no safe cross country to get around, you're stopped.

The agencies are responsible for keeping the wilderness accessible to the public. What folks don't think about is what happens when access ceases to be safe. Case in point: One of the routes to the Willow Meadow trailhead in Dinkey Wilderness is closed indefinitely, because the bridge is damaged and there is no funding to fix it. Guess who clears roads to trailheads? In our forest it's often the four wheel drive clubs. When roads and other access points are deemed unsafe - they are closed. No access. Safety first.

There are trails on the maps that are no longer there, at all, because the Forest Service decided to let them go. Crews go where the FS prioritizes the work.

You can believe what you want. I'm not going to say you're wrong. I just know what is going to happen if the volunteer crews stop working, because it's already starting to happen.
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Re: Two Yosemite articles - overcrowding and mule riding

Post by dave54 »

Why are we driving the mules around in trams? Or are the mules driving the trams?

BTW -- the Forest Service does have helicopters, but are funded by fire, so the priority use is fire. The helicopters are not available when when the ologists or recreation folks want them for wilderness resupply. A one day charter for a single load is often too pricey for a strapped wilderness management budget.

The tram system in Rocky Mountain and Zion works pretty good. I do not know the operating costs for the NPS to run their tram systems, but it must be better than paving over more and more acres of meadow to accommodate more cars.
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