Backpacking Responsibly

Grab your bear can or camp chair, kick your feet up and chew the fat about anything Sierra Nevada related that doesn't quite fit in any of the other forums. Within reason, (and the HST rules and guidelines) this is also an anything goes forum. Tell stories, discuss wilderness issues, music, or whatever else the High Sierra stirs up in your mind.
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sparky
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Re: Backpacking Responsibly

Post by sparky »

+1 mav, the calm respectful attitude is why i enjoy this forum. I dipped low and said some rude things to tom and AT on a similar discussion. AT, I tried to send you an apology via PM when that went down but your pms are turned off. After I re-read what I wrote I realized a big mistake on my part...slinging personal insults.
I just deleted my entire part of the discussion.

I have a completely different view on this that i will just keep to myself.
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Re: Backpacking Responsibly

Post by Wandering Daisy »

Thank you for the further details. Nobody here needs to dramatize a trip or feel the report has to be funny or entertaining. The less drama on a trip, the better in my opinion. I like to read ALL trip reports. Nobody is a "bad writer" in my opinion. No reports are boring. I post trip reports so that others can gain some knowledge of various areas I backpack. We all post photos, no matter that most of us are not professional photographers. I enjoyed reading about your route, but cringed at parts that you probably embellished for drama and humor.

As for "the most challenging trips being the best", that depends. I would say that challenging trips that go well and that I have met the challenges, are some of my best trips. However, a challenging trip gone wrong, to me, is a miserable trip (I have had my share!).

I am amazed that the ranger did not discourage you from "bailing out" via Avalanche Pass. There is little to gain an a lot more logistical problems that are caused by this bail out. If I had sore knees and feet, I would rather go uphill and longer distances than do that elevation drop from Avalanche Pass. Most backpackers do not pay enough attention to planning for emergency, bail-outs, or retreat. A lesson to be learned here.
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AlmostThere
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Re: Backpacking Responsibly

Post by AlmostThere »

I was about to say I don't have PMs turned off - but then I remembered it was the last thing I did before I "left."

I've been in the past very frustrated with people in forums who encourage fools to be more foolish, or beginners to do very difficult challenging routes, or not said anything when people post what is clearly an ambitious route with some signs of ignorance of what it will really mean for them. I have to keep reminding myself that not everyone spends six years chasing lost people, training each month for night navigation, and hearing story after story about the many ways ignorant and willful people get into trouble. Not to mention the experienced backpackers, the not-so-willful but still ignorant, the blissfully unprepared day hiker, and the rest - stuff happens and stuff does not respect your many years of wilderness experience sometimes.

And also even if you've spent time in SAR, not everyone in SAR hikes or backpacks for fun - and certainly they haven't been doing it the way I do, with groups of people, many of which I never see more than a couple times and many who are just getting into it then go on to more adventurous things than I care to do - a Facebook friend has been taking canyoneering classes and climbing classes, and thanked me the other day for launching him into the outdoors. My groups become a way for hikers to meet other like minded people, and go their own way - and that's fine. But in addition to that it demonstrates over and over to me - when we say "experienced" we all mean very different things. Almost to the point that the word means nothing at all - one single night short backpacking trip made one person feel entitled to join my backpacking group, and when I responded to the negative (I prefer that people have many trips of longer duration under their belt before they join that group) she blew up at me. How dare I make assumptions about her? To which I responded, I can't make assumptions at all. You have to tell me about your experience for me to know about it. Vague assurances are what I get from people who intend to use me as a free guiding service - and then they are over their heads, unable to go onward, and I am hiking out with a limping guy who's vomiting and needing help filtering water to replace the three liters he lost in the past hour. And she is still angry, this lady who I have never met who wants to join a group that does five to nine day backpacking trips, and still giving me attitude in email as if I should know better - and I've come to the point that this is what I will not allow any more, this attitude that you get to just do whatever you like, who cares who that inconveniences? Who cares if you can't do 10 mile days and get sick unto the point of altered personality? You should let me go backpacking with you! I'll be fine! And then they don't tell me about hot spots, don't tell me about anything they are suffering until it's blisteringly obvious they are either about to descend into heat stroke or just fall over on the trail, because they said they would be fine and therefore they have to deny not being fine almost til it's too late.

I screen people a lot more than I used to. I have to - even on the day hikes. But I still enjoy taking people, because the majority of them aren't really problems and honestly benefit and enjoy the trips I plan. And I still have people who will do risky things, right in front of me sometimes. I had four people take off on a different angle while hiking cross country to Moose Lake - an "experienced" hiker decided to navigate using Big Bird Peak (it wasn't the right peak) and ended up too far down the ridge. Of course, it was all about getting to the destination - except it wasn't. I wanted the group together for safety - if someone rolls a rock, or a rock rolls on them, on the steep terrain, we needed to be together, if only because I had the PLB. He didn't listen well. This is a frequent problem - talk, send descriptions, have a meeting before the hiking starts, and once you're out there it all goes right out of their heads.

So it's a learning curve for me, accepting that people will do whatever they think is best and accepting that it makes no sense at all sometimes - from my perspective. I get that people who go a lot and never have things happen will have a totally different angle on it all. But I have seen a lot - a LOT - of goof ups, from fireballs on canister stoves to day hikers who got bored and wandered off leaving their group to call the helicopters out to to help. People completely fail to respect the amount of time others spend looking for them, worrying about them, or trying to figure out how to convince them not to race ahead (even when they have missed intersections in the past and gotten lost).

I try not to talk about it so much anymore. It just sounds like I'm making it up, or bragging, because no one hikes this much... but there's a core group of us who do. We have to kind of be our own support group. We get a lot of angry entitled people yelling at us for having some rules of our own for this stuff. So that's why I sound a little hardnosed or set on the side of safety. Not enough people have an idea of how it works yet, and they want to be treated like intelligent adults, instead of ignorant beginner hikers. Well, ok. I guess I get to do that until you need a compass and a map.
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Re: Backpacking Responsibly

Post by balance »

This is interesting.

How many of us more experienced hikers have climbed a ledge that, in hindsight, wasn't worth the risk? Or forded a stream that was "this close" to going all wrong? It's a wonder John Muir survived some of his exploits!

Things are going to happen out there that don't go according to plan. Yellowboy was determined to enjoy his journey in the mountains, and it sounds like that was the outcome for him and his friend.

Having said that, there is a caution to be noted. The Sierra Nevada is often a benign environment, and it can lull a person into complacency or carelessness. Then when the storm hits or a rock slips or your map skills aren't up to the task, all heck can break loose. So my suggestion to the intrepid young hikers is: Don't invite trouble. It has it's own way of finding you, so be prepared. While you enjoy the mountains, respect their power and stay connected with reality.

Edward Abbey would have probably enjoyed your trip report. But he also somewhat advocated eliminating SAR, and just letting the ill prepared and foolish struggle, or perish, as their fate would dictate.

Peace.
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Re: Backpacking Responsibly

Post by Tom_H »

whrdafamI wrote:How many on here can TRULY say they have "always" done it right, have never F'ed up and are always perfect?
Have I ever done dumb and dangerous stuff? Hmmm.....,let's see.

One time I filled up the bathtub, sprinted down the hall and attempted to be superman, flying (head first long jump) into the water. I did fly. The old spigot handles tapered to a sharp point at the upper ends, on one of which I impaled my knee and wound up getting stitches up the side.

Once I ran as fast as I could atop an elevated platform toward a set of stairs, intending to skip hop down them 4 or 5 at a time. I tripped and became superman once again. I flew the entire flight of stairs, touching none, ...... landing beyond the last stair of the flight......on concrete.....on my two front teeth........which turned to sand.

I was born with natural climbing skills and was like a chimp in the trees and scaling framed in walls of new houses. One day at a height of about 20 feet in a tree, I slipped. I woke up with the neighbor (who happened to be an orthopedic surgeon) kneeling over me telling me not to move. He and my dad took me in the back of the good doctor's station wagon to the hospital where X-rays revealed my broken back. I slept on the floor and wore a back brace that hoisted my shoulders like Frankenstein for 6 months.

I once raced my bike straight downhill attempting to hit the edged curb at the end and hop the entire stream beyond. Instead I flipped and landed in blackberry bushes full of thorns. On an even steeper hill I wanted to see how high I could get the speedometer on my new Schwinn. It hit 40, and I suddenly realized it might take a bit of distance to stop before the road ended or I skidded. Fortunately, this time my mental calculations were working a bit better.

The bathtub was age 4. I lost my teeth at 7 (and had to endure the nickname Silver Tooth until 16). Skydiving out of the tree came at 8. Both bike incidents were around 9.

So yeah, I was young and crazy once. But by the time I started camping and canoeing I was ready for my scout masters to teach me some actual discipline and respect for the wilderness.

As far as adulthood, my best pal and I got drunk the night of HS graduation. We puked so much I lost all taste for hard alcohol. I used to sail off cornices at Alpine and Squaw, but I grew into mild freestyle stunts gradually and never got hurt. In the back country, the biggest risk I took knowingly was doing single strand rappels with no belay off 110 degree overhangs down 100 + foot drops with the brake open and popping the brake just before reaching the ground. It was fun, but the anchors were set well, we were with numerous other instructors, and we had become skilled enough to do it safely. After the tree, however, I always was a cautious climber, even after I became an instructor.

My biggest goof up lately was not realizing how big the snowpack still was in mid-July of 2011 and having to traverse the 55 degree edge of Heather Lake with my inexperienced daughter and niece with no rope, ice axes, or crampons while the lake was frozen over excepting the thawed 3 feet nearest the edge. We were descending from Aloha and it was too steep to go back. This one was not by choice, but by necessity. I stomped the snow down back and forth 3 times, shuttled all 3 packs, then carefully eased across with those precious girls, praying to whatever may be out there to forgive my stupidity and spare those girls I love so much. Never again will I go where there may be those conditions without the right equipment. The back country is no place to take foolish risks. An old religious quote comes to mind. When I was a child, I spoke and thought (and acted) as a child, but when I became a man, such ways I put aside.
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Re: Backpacking Responsibly

Post by AlmostThere »

balance wrote:This is interesting.

How many of us more experienced hikers have climbed a ledge that, in hindsight, wasn't worth the risk? Or forded a stream that was "this close" to going all wrong? It's a wonder John Muir survived some of his exploits!
I've done a lot of things in hindsight that wasn't worth the risk.

The difference between that and a lot of people who have been searched for *twice* (or more) is that some learn from mistakes, and others never even bother to think for the few minutes it would take to "get it" and not do the same idiotic things again and again. And the mistakes made that don't pay off *this time* will be made again.

I still do things that I could have done differently. I'm getting a lot of verbal abuse this morning for keeping a small group small on a cross country hike - people are selfish and not LNT, and make demands. I'm debating whether they will ever get to hike with me at all again....
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Re: Backpacking Responsibly

Post by Tom_H »

AlmostThere wrote:The difference between (things in hindsight that wasn't worth the risk) and a lot of people who have been searched for *twice* (or more) is that some learn from mistakes, and others never even bother to think for the few minutes it would take to "get it" and not do the same idiotic things again and again. And the mistakes made that don't pay off *this time* will be made again.
Yep, Our mistakes are our best teachers..........IF we are willing learners. Life lessons come through the school of hard knocks. Some foolish people, however, go through that school and come out with nothing but a harder head. ](*,) They are too obsessed with this I'll do everything my own GDed way and nobody else has the right to tell me how I should do anything. They don't allow life to teach them humility. [-( That kind of arrogance is dangerous, not only to one's self, but others as well.

End :soapbox:
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Re: Backpacking Responsibly

Post by sparky »

Backpacking responsibly is an approach to this thing we do, and is worthy of discussion here no matter the experience level. Especially those of us perfectly comfortable when we are out there.

I think what we have here, are two worldviews meeting. I am reminded of police officers who only deal with lowlifes daily, and so begin to assume the world is full of lowlifes.

I just dont come from a world of idiots. I come from a world where people fix thier own cars, fix thier own houses, people who have spent thier lives getting thier hands dirty. People who are self realized and have nothing to prove.

But Tom & ATs attitude really is right in that we cant know how capable a random from the internet is. We dont know what world they come from. I dont have the ability to assume everyone is an idiot.

I encourage you two to show some patience when teminding us that we have to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Some of us just arent used to that.
B
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Re: Backpacking Responsibly

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sparky wrote:I just dont come from a world of idiots. I come from a world where people fix thier own cars, fix thier own houses, people who have spent thier lives getting thier hands dirty. People who are self realized and have nothing to prove.
I don't just fix my own log house, I designed it; I contracted it; I did a lot of the work building it: put the roof on myself, drove nails, poured and worked concrete, have spent thousands of hours over the last 25 years doing backbreaking work out in my 5 acres. A realtor valued my property at around $1M and most of that has come through the manual labor of my wife and me. With our own 4 hands we have created a lush 2 acre woodland garden/forest with hundreds of trees and thousands of shrubs and flowers, a 1k sq. ft. pool and 2 big waterfalls that looks like a Sierra lake in our own backyard. Nobody else takes care of it for us. I fix my own cars, drag my own implements to the 3 point hitch of my tractor, get covered in axle grease, and scrub it off with Go-Jo. I have carried packs over 100 lb. through snow, have gone as much as 26 miles in a day (16 of that in snow), and more than once have had to save the life of some unprepared person I found lost or injured in the back country.

I'm not trying to brag just for bragging's sake. I am telling you that this part of my world view is not as different from yours as you may think. I know what it is to work my behind off just as much as you do. Where we differ is our belief about self-discipline and responsibility toward society as a whole. The fact that someone is rugged and self made does not give him the innate right to go around acting like the rules and law of the land do not apply to him. When that boy, Jes, came on here, having never backpacked a day in his life, and asked about hiking the HST in March with a rickety little pack and an old rectangular bag, and not one other piece of equipment, some people here encouraged the boy to just go for it, told him he'd be fine, just depend on himself. That is not good advice. Had that boy gone out there he likely would have died. Those of us who are strong and know how to survive on our own in the wilderness have not always been that way. We once were children. Heck, my above post shows what a reckless wild child I was. But we grew and we had people to teach us skills and instill values of hard work and self reliance in us. And that took time, it also took a lot of patience by those who taught us. We learned a little at a time. Becoming the adults we are today took time and we all had a learning curve.

So here's more about my world view. I teach school. I do more parenting of my kids than their own parents do. Over half come from broken homes, have parents who drink and do drugs, who spoil their children. A lot have parents who are in jail. (And all of this is true for every race and ethnicity.) Just this Wednesday I was on a field trip to Coloma and a kid from another class was jumping around karate chopping and kicking other kids pretty hard. His mother was there, laughing at him because she thought it was downright "cute" the way he was "expressing himself." She was unhappy when I told him he needed to keep his hands and feet to himself. I have parents who don't think their kids need to use the bathroom at recess and should be allowed to leave class any time they desire to do so. Many parents just laugh when I ask them to help the kids practice math facts and to spend time reading with their children at home. On Thursday, one parent showed up outside the door at the end of school, distributing bags of cookies and cupcakes to every child as they left in honor of her daughter's birthday. She didn't ask if it was o.k., even though other parents have requested we not let this occur. It probably will not surprise you that this mother and her daughter are both morbidly obese. Half the children in my class do no homework and the parents do not care. One parent got angry when I took a drawing her son was making during math class and threw it away. The mother scheduled a meeting, yelled at me, said her precious son felt "bad" when that happened, that he should never have to feel bad about anything in his life, then threatened to have her husband come beat me up if the boy was ever made to feel bad or sad about anything again. In my classroom, I have to teach children how civilized people act, how to treat each other, and I have to make them learn. Having to be both parent as well as academic instructor at the same time is hard work. In spite of the fact that 60% of the children in our school are in poverty and qualify for free lunch and breakfast, my classes' standardized test scores are consistently high with the vast majority scoring proficient or advanced year after year. So this is where I am coming from, Sparky, a world of immature adults who are teaching their children to be even more immature. Truly, far to many parents today not only spoil their children, but it is actually their goal to do so. I also am deeply troubled by the ever increasing reports of psychopaths walking onto school campuses and mowing down innocent little children. The second amendment begins with a dependent clause that qualifies the meaning of the entire statement. When a member of this board like whrdafamI makes comments about guns, that view is contrary to everything I know and believe. I protect and guide the young and innocent every day. Innocents whose right to life and safety supersede the rights of others to inflict violence.

All of us are in the process of growing and maturing. My own adopted daughter knew that I expected her to be able to take care of herself by the time she was 18 or finished college. She knew I would never allow her to grow up and then mooch off of me or off of society as an adult. (She is now a computer science major at Cal Poly.) But she didn't get there on her own. I spent every day during 18 years of loving, nurturing, and teaching her how to get there. Sparky, I think you and I both have an expectation that people be able to take care of themselves. That is a good thing. The thing is, in today's pathetic world, far too many of them don't know how....because no one has ever taught them how. I, for one, cannot tell newbies, Just go do it and depend upon yourself, when they are not capable of doing it. They likely will not be o.k. When they come here, it is an inbuilt part of my nature to teach them how they can get to that point. It is the parent in me, the teacher in me, the wilderness instructor in me that wants to get them from novice status to self-reliant status. Sometimes I can do that gently, and other times they don't listen unless some of us start acting like a strict parent. It doesn't help that attempt when AT and I get called arrogant and have vulgarities thrown at us. This is why I don't like to backpack with other people unless one of two things is true. Either they are rank amateurs whom I can teach and mold in the best way possible, or they are seasoned veterans who practice LNT and all other of the safety protocols I use, such as knowing every possible evac. route available from every point along the route. And this is why the guy whose actions instigated this thread is wrong about maps. You cannot memorize a map. You can memorize a minuscule amount of information from a map. But in an emergency, you need to be able to calculate elevation differences between several points on a map. You need to be able to estimate the steepness of a slope at any point on the map by examining the density of elevation/contour lines. You need to be able accurately to determine latitude and longitude at any point on the map to within several feet. Uninformed people assume they know so much, when in fact they frequently are utterly clueless. Let's agree to help keep them safe, not egg on their dangerous foolishness.
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Re: Backpacking Responsibly

Post by ERIC »

Closing this thread as I think it has run its course, and because it seems some posters may be incapable of stating their positions without innuendo.
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