Survival / Lost, what would you do?

Questions and reports related to Sierra Nevada current and forecast conditions, as well as general precautions and safety information. Trail conditions, fire/smoke reports, mosquito reports, weather and snow conditions, stream crossing information, and more.
User avatar
maverick
Forums Moderator
Forums Moderator
Posts: 11821
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:54 pm
Experience: Level 4 Explorer

Re: Survival / Lost, what would you do?

Post by maverick »

Maybe better to realize this and respond accordingly instead of talking down to and treating us as if you were the only experienced one here and we are completely clueless.
Sorry you feel this way Mark, in no way are my intentions to talk down to anyone, my apologies to anyone who may have been offended and has taken my thread as such here on HST.

My intentions here are only to keep safety at the forefront at the beginning of our new backpacking season and to remind members, especially those who may be embarking into the wilderness for the first time, about refreshing the basic's to survival.

Perhaps, let's instead assume that many here are Sierra pros - cool-headed and knowledgeable.
You can go ahead assume that Mark, personally I won't do that until someone has somewhat reasonably shown otherwise.

I wonder how many others here are becoming somewhat offended too
.

Would be interested too, those of you who are experienced and long time members, who do not care for reminders about refreshing our first aid skills, rethinking our approaches in case of survival, or helping our less experienced members with some of our wisdom that we have gained through our own trials and tribulations, can easily disregard my posts conerning these subject matters.
Personally my hope is that more of you "experienced members" will chime in, seeing and understanding the importance of this and other threads like it. :)


EIther way, I will continue to be a "soapbox" for safety as long as I continue to read about parents thinking that their son had exited the wilderness, only realizing a week later that he never did, which was the case of Michael Meyers, a 25 year old UCLA student back in Nov 2015. Sorry, I just can't turn the other way and say "well I'm experienced and that ain't happening to me".

:soapbox:
Professional Sierra Landscape Photographer

I don't give out specific route information, my belief is that it takes away from the whole adventure spirit of a trip, if you need every inch planned out, you'll have to get that from someone else.

Have a safer backcountry experience by using the HST ReConn Form 2.0, named after Larry Conn, a HST member: http://reconn.org
User avatar
Jimr
Forums Moderator
Forums Moderator
Posts: 2175
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:14 pm
Experience: Level 4 Explorer
Location: Torrance

Re: Survival / Lost, what would you do?

Post by Jimr »

Turning around often to know what the return looks like, absolutely! We talked about out and back trips and the fact that reversing your steps is a whole new view of the scenery. Almost to the point that it feels like new ground.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If you don't know where you're going, then any path will get you there.
User avatar
tomba
Topix Regular
Posts: 375
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:50 pm
Experience: Level 4 Explorer
Location: Bay Area

Re: Survival / Lost, what would you do?

Post by tomba »

Here is a realistic scary scenario for me.

Nine day solo trip late September. On day 3, on a cross country route, you stashed away the pack at 11,000' and climbed a class 2 peak. On the way down, you broke your leg. It is late afternoon. You have SPOT, but, unknown to you, it can't summon help. You have a sun hat, a warm hat, gloves, nylon shirt, thin fleece jacket, down jacket, zip-off pants, belt, adjustable trekking poles, camera, smart phone (no signal), signal mirror. No food or water. No rain gear. There is food and 1L of water in the pack that you left behind. Nobody will visit this remote area until the next year. Nobody will be looking for you until day 10 or 11, after you are more than one day overdue, per instructions left with the family. You left with the family the most likely rough route and several rough options. The peak was unplanned, not in any of the optional routes. The pack is mostly hidden, hard to find for rescuers. You are 2 days and one or two passes away from any trailhead. To reach any trail you would have to cross a difficult terrain.

I would try to stabilize my leg with sections of trekking poles and belt, trying not to cut off blood circulation. I would also send SOS from SPOT, unsure whether it works.

The first priority would be to stay warm and dry. If it rains I would be in big trouble. Typically in such area there are no places to hide from rain. Down jacket would become almost useless when wet. Even if I had my rain jacket, it would be impossible to keep all of me dry. Would poncho be better in such case?

Even if it doesn't rain it would be a very cold night, but, I hope, it would be survivable.

The next priority would be water. I hope I would be able to crawl to my pack. It could take perhaps 2 or 3 days. If the days are sunny, windless, and hot I would have to minimize sweating. Perhaps crawl at night? I could occasionally use the phone as a flashlight. If there is an obstacle I can't crawl around my situation would be dire.

When it's sunny, from time to time I would scan the horizon with the signal mirror. Also signal any visible areas where there might be people, and approaching airplanes. A series of 3 flashes, repeated a few times.

When I get to the pack I would ration the 1L water, and keep crawling with the pack to some water. I would also ration the remaining food. After getting to water, I would stay put.

After a few days it would become apparent that SPOT didn't work. Starting with day 11, every 2 hours on the hour during waking hours I would turn on the phone for 5-10 minutes, with airplane mode off. I wouldn't keep it on all the time, in order to conserve power. I don't know whether rescuers have equipment to track cell phone signal.

The most vulnerable time for me seems to be when I am separated from the pack that has my rain shelter, sleeping bag, and water. There is only so much stuff that I can take with me in my pockets, hanging from my belt, and tied around my waist. It would help if I took with me the rain fly, more warm clothes, and 0.5L water bottle. What's a good way to pack that without adding much weight? A separate day pack would be too heavy. Perhaps a stuff sack with some straps sewn in? Any ideas? Another option is to have the main pack with removable hip belt and removable aluminum stays (e.g., Zimmer Packs).

Is poncho a better emergency protection than a rain jacket?

Anything else to prepare?
-- Found trash? Please pack it out. Thank you.
User avatar
AlmostThere
Topix Addict
Posts: 2724
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:38 pm
Experience: Level 4 Explorer

Re: Survival / Lost, what would you do?

Post by AlmostThere »

If you are significantly off route, what will likely find you first is a helicopter, so think about things that increase visibility from the air -- very bright colored or reflective things. Nothing like a laser pointer -- you'll get in big trouble if that gets in a pilot's eyes! A red rain poncho would be perfect. Throw it out in a wide open spot and find something contrasting -- some nice black duct tape, white rocks -- to SOS with. Flash the signal mirror if you see the chopper. They may leave, but it won't be because they didn't see you necessarily -- they can't always land where you are. The key is to look like you want help -- I was told about one search where the chopper was taking team members out in twos, and passing back and forth over a meadow with a tent in it -- on one trip they decided to land and ask if the guy had seen the lost guys, and it turned out he was one of them. He wasn't even waving at the chopper. It may have been he wasn't aware of which kind of chopper it was, but that is beside the point -- all choppers have radios, and if it's out there, it's likely he knows there is a search going even if it is a military or private model.

Lighting yourself a fire is appropriate in a survival situation. Might not have much fuel up high, but if you can get anything going if you hear aircraft -- the lower flying prop kind, mind you -- it's worth a go.

A couple of contractor bags, the 10mm heavy kind, weighs very little and rolls up into the bottom of even my fanny pack. Big enough to bivy in, or use as a small tarp.

Tomba's scenario is reminiscent of a lone peakbagger search -- I think it was Norman Clyde Peak. They were looking for an overdue peakbagger, found his crampons down slope, found him dead up in the rocks. He had been climbing alone and they figured from the head lamp he was working back down in the dark. And on the way back to the drop point, one of my friends dropped his sunglasses under the edge of a snowfield, and with an improvised trekking pole-duct tape rig got his sunglasses, plus a very old human bone. Don't think we ever heard back from whatever DNA testing was done, and I'll never hear since I left the SAR team, but it was a sobering story.

I've never heard of a SAR team getting any kind of coordinate from a cell phone. I've seen it mentioned in news reports for searches outside the Sierra, though, so assume it is possible and some of the jurisdictions must have less red tape than we do, or something....
User avatar
Jimr
Forums Moderator
Forums Moderator
Posts: 2175
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:14 pm
Experience: Level 4 Explorer
Location: Torrance

Re: Survival / Lost, what would you do?

Post by Jimr »

AlmostThere wrote:If you are significantly off route, what will likely find you first is a helicopter, so think about things that increase visibility from the air -- very bright colored or reflective things.....
I learned a big lesson there when I was in Tehipite Valley. I used white rocks against dark rock background to make a big "X" on the ground. When the helicoptor passed by, I was waving my red shirt. He didn't see either. When the Sheriff's did arrive and I told him about the helicoptor, he told me the pilot didn't see us. He saw my ground cloth under my tent. A big, blue painters tarp and said that would have been a good thing to use. Think big! A good argument for a brightly colored footprint or white for a palette and duct tape a big "X".
If you don't know where you're going, then any path will get you there.
User avatar
sambieni
Topix Regular
Posts: 303
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:24 pm
Experience: Level 2 Backpacker

Re: Survival / Lost, what would you do?

Post by sambieni »

maverick wrote:
My intentions here are only to keep safety at the forefront at the beginning of our new backpacking season and to remind members, especially those who may be embarking into the wilderness for the first time, about refreshing the basic's to survival.

...
Would be interested too, those of you who are experienced and long time members, who do not care for reminders about refreshing our first aid skills, rethinking our approaches in case of survival, or helping our less experienced members with some of our wisdom that we have gained through our own trials and tribulations, can easily disregard my posts conerning these subject matters.
Personally my hope is that more of you "experienced members" will chime in, seeing and understanding the importance of this and other threads like it. :)

EIther way, I will continue to be a "soapbox" for safety as long as I continue to read about parents thinking that their son had exited the wilderness, only realizing a week later that he never did, which was the case of Michael Meyers, a 25 year old UCLA student back in Nov 2015. Sorry, I just can't turn the other way and say "well I'm experienced and that ain't happening to me".

:soapbox:
Appreciate the thread. As someone with more limited backcountry experience, it is helpful to learn from other folks' experiences. I commend the effort to coax folks to think about potential scenarios a/o share their own experiences. It is already helpful to me as I think of 1-2 more things to throw into my pack - backcountry or day.

One thing curious about - why do you recommend back country shelter/blanket? If you're trekking, I would assume you would have a pack w a tent/tarp and sleeping bag already. Why the extra item? Seems superfluous. I could see the need in a daypack where you're intending to return after a few hours.
User avatar
maverick
Forums Moderator
Forums Moderator
Posts: 11821
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:54 pm
Experience: Level 4 Explorer

Re: Survival / Lost, what would you do?

Post by maverick »

Sambieni wrote:
One thing curious about - why do you recommend back country shelter/blanket? If you're trekking, I would assume you would have a pack w a tent/tarp and sleeping bag already. Why the extra item? Seems superfluous. I could see the need in a daypack where you're intending to return after a few hours.
When basecamping in the backcountry and then going on a day hike, one should always carry some survival gear with themselves in case you get injured or lost, instead of carrying your sleeping bag the space blanket (3 oz) can save weight, and yes, it should be part of a day hikers essentials gear too.
Professional Sierra Landscape Photographer

I don't give out specific route information, my belief is that it takes away from the whole adventure spirit of a trip, if you need every inch planned out, you'll have to get that from someone else.

Have a safer backcountry experience by using the HST ReConn Form 2.0, named after Larry Conn, a HST member: http://reconn.org
User avatar
maverick
Forums Moderator
Forums Moderator
Posts: 11821
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:54 pm
Experience: Level 4 Explorer

Re: Survival / Lost, what would you do?

Post by maverick »

Tomba wrote:
The first priority would be to stay warm and dry. If it rains I would be in big trouble. Typically in such area there are no places to hide from rain. Down jacket would become almost useless when wet. Even if I had my rain jacket, it would be impossible to keep all of me dry. Would poncho be better in such case?
Personally I always have a pancho, it works as rain gear and shelter, and weighs only 10 oz. A space blanket should be included as part of your day hike or climb gear, you never know when you could be forced to spend a night or more away from you camp. A fire start kit, mine consists of some cotton balls dipped in vaseline in a old film canister, should be with you too. Some type of water purification is also part on my kit.

The next priority would be water. I hope I would be able to crawl to my pack. It could take perhaps 2 or 3 days. If the days are sunny, windless, and hot I would have to minimize sweating. Perhaps crawl at night? I could occasionally use the phone as a flashlight. If there is an obstacle I can't crawl around my situation would be dire.
Headlamp is consider one of the essentials, and should be with you any extended time you will be away from your basecamp. Also have an exit/emergency plan already planned oiut in case you get injured. Know should know where all the popular trails are relative to you location, know where and how far your nearest water source is from your intended day hikes or climbing goals for that day, before starting. Also pay attention to your terrain, memorize firewood locations along the way, so in case of an emergency, you do not have to waste precious time looking for some.


After a few days it would become apparent that SPOT didn't work. Starting with day 11, every 2 hours on the hour during waking hours I would turn on the phone for 5-10 minutes, with airplane mode off. I wouldn't keep it on all the time, in order to conserve power. I don't know whether rescuers have equipment to track cell phone signal.
Ranger and HST member George Durkee had mention that there was such newer technology, possibly military, that could be used, but he will have to clarify this.


The most vulnerable time for me seems to be when I am separated from the pack that has my rain shelter, sleeping bag, and water. There is only so much stuff that I can take with me in my pockets, hanging from my belt, and tied around my waist. It would help if I took with me the rain fly, more warm clothes, and 0.5L water bottle. What's a good way to pack that without adding much weight? A separate day pack would be too heavy. Perhaps a stuff sack with some straps sewn in? Any ideas? Another option is to have the main pack with removable hip belt and removable aluminum stays (e.g., Zimmer Packs).
Some packs have detachable top parts that can be used for daypacks, I just use my pack a Osprey 58, now a ZPack Arc, the weight is minimal, so taking it along is not big deal.

Is poncho a better emergency protection than a rain jacket?
Have used it in pretty bad weather, if the weather is really stormy it works better combine with some rain pants, but can be difficult to manage in very windy conditions, and not the best in bushwacking conditions either, so it really depends on the circumstances. A small tarp combine with some rain gear may be a better solution in some cases.
Professional Sierra Landscape Photographer

I don't give out specific route information, my belief is that it takes away from the whole adventure spirit of a trip, if you need every inch planned out, you'll have to get that from someone else.

Have a safer backcountry experience by using the HST ReConn Form 2.0, named after Larry Conn, a HST member: http://reconn.org
User avatar
rlown
Topix Docent
Posts: 8225
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:00 pm
Experience: Level 4 Explorer
Location: Wilton, CA

Re: Survival / Lost, what would you do?

Post by rlown »

I would really appreciate some of those that are somewhat new to backpacking to say how they prepare and what they would do in the scenarios, or at least mention how they pack/prepare for their trip. We won't pick it apart.. Mav might. If you want suggestions on how to improve your approach, just say so at the end of your post. If you don't, say that as well.

Posting on this thread helps everyone, except us old farts. Hey, we still learn new tricks from time to time as well. ;)
User avatar
Wandering Daisy
Topix Docent
Posts: 6640
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:19 pm
Experience: N/A
Location: Fair Oaks CA (Sacramento area)
Contact:

Re: Survival / Lost, what would you do?

Post by Wandering Daisy »

First I will answer the up-front questions.

Allergies - yes, always have Benydrl- this works for all my allergies

shelter - always when backpacking - minimum a bivy sack, most of the time tent, always an appropriate sleeping bag

shelter when day-hiking - enough clothing and outer layer that is water/wind proof. I have done many overnight bivouacs with a minimal clothing to a bivy sack, w/o sleeping bag, in many conditions, so I am quite aware of what I need. Used to do mountaineering, and getting stuck on a climb was not common, but did this more than a dozen times, some quite dramatic, most with a group or at least one other person, a few solo.

purify water w/o filter -- I often do not take any kind of water purification means. I have chlorine dioxide tablets always with me, but often do not use them. I have sipped directly out of streams my whole life with no problems. And, if in a survival situation, bad water is the least of my concerns.

plant and insect identification for food - yes, but this is not a practical way to survive. You end up expanding more energy than you get in many situations. Better to have fishing gear!

Fire starter -yes, and yes I can build a fire with wet wood - done this a million times. In the old days we did not even use stoves - had to build fires in all conditions just to eat. But, be aware that gathering wood and building a fire is not always practical or even possible if you are injured. Better to just get snug in the sleeping bag and tent.

Navigate w/o a compass. This is my normal way of navigation. I dumped the compass 10 years ago and no problem. I always take the best map (most detailed) available and coverage that far exceeds my exact path. Do not use a GPS.

I admit I do get anxious when lost, but never true "panic". Luckily I have never been seriously injured, but have people in my group hurt enough that I had to go out and get a helicopter evacuation for them.

As for the two scenarios, I will have to think about them, because, honestly, I am never unprepared. I have been hurt, sprained ankle. I just soaked it in cold water, wrapped it and then walked out 8 hours. I have been more seriously hurt, but in a larger group, so my buddies helped me out. I have been lost many times, but always found myself, and it mostly worried others, not me. I have had survival training, and have done two 50-mile walk-outs without food. I think a big factor is knowing when to move, and when to hunker down, good judgement due to lots of experience.

My advise to newbies, is to not go solo until you get more experience. I climbed and backpacked 25 years before I ever went solo.
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 48 guests