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Gas Canister Stoves Question

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Re: Gas Canister Stoves Question

Postby longri » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:36 am

AlmostThere wrote:I have gotten some fuel mixes that have noticeably *less* efficiency and get me less burn time than Snow Peak or MSR brands. Don't bother with any brand you don't recognize - MSR, Primus, Snow Peak, or JetBoil fuel for me. Really cheap off market canisters can also have impurities in the fuel that clog jets.

With which brands have you measured poor efficiency?
Which ones clogged your stove?



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Re: Gas Canister Stoves Question

Postby frediver » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:11 pm

Rant
Guess my 1st got lost.

These Reg.s do not make sense.
Having an open flame should not the the criteria, what happens to the flame
is a better indicator of potential hazard.
All stoves have failures, liquid, canister, alcohol, or tablet.
IMO
The only type stove I can think of that could need a ban
during fire restrictions would be a actual wood burner
because those can throw sparks. It short the ability
of any stove to throw a spark is a better indicator
of its potential hazard.

Still: I will follow the rules but it sure would be nice if they
made sense.
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Re: Gas Canister Stoves Question

Postby AlmostThere » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:43 pm

There is a local store that sells green canisters labeled "camping gaz" - these have a radically short life span compared to name brands. I have noticed that my giga sputters and has issues while using one, as opposed to the smooth efficient operation I get with msr or snow peak branded canisters.

Others from other states who post in another forum have reported similar issues with cheap fuel of odd make. I don't have a list of every knockoff cheap stove, fuel, etc - they exist tho, and you generally get what you pay for.
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Re: Gas Canister Stoves Question

Postby longri » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:26 pm

frediver wrote:Rant...

These Reg.s do not make sense.
Having an open flame should not the the criteria, what happens to the flame
is a better indicator of potential hazard.
All stoves have failures, liquid, canister, alcohol, or tablet.
IMO

It's big fire danger this year so I can see why they are worried. In Australia where the bush goes boom every so often they have fire ban days when the danger is high. You can't use a stove of ANY TYPE during those times. So for here the no open flame stove is probably a compromise they arrived at, less the peasants revolt.

Probably the biggest human danger is due to campfires.
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Re: Gas Canister Stoves Question

Postby AlmostThere » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:41 pm

Well, think about it. Tip over an alcohol stove that's basically a cup full of fuel, and you have a flame spreading far and wide and uncontrollable. Most people don't bring along a snuffer can for their alcohol stove, either. If a stove with a valve tips and you're supervising it (as you should always do with any stove) you turn it off and beat out what's caught, if anything.

Guess who's done both?

I fully expect a total ban - no stoves at all - by the end of summer.
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Re: Gas Canister Stoves Question

Postby frediver » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:26 pm

Spilling, sorta true but really how far do you think a 1/2 or even 3/4 oz of Alcohol will travel? If on dirt then not very far, if on a boulder well they do not burn. Also consider that an alcohol is often much more stabil than a pressurized stove due to its position on the ground, not often above it. Sure everyone has the ability
to snuff out there alcohol stove in an emergency, they can use their cook pot, much better to burn the noodles than the forest.
Still how will that compare to a pressurized stove venting a jet of flame or a hot stove tipping over and potentially rolling away.

Accidents happen and that is why I maintain that an open flame should not be the criteria but the ability
of that flame to travel is more important, ie sparks.
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Re: Gas Canister Stoves Question

Postby OzSwaggie » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:56 pm

Yes thanks for all this. I couldn't understand why alcohol would not be considered as safe as the others, either - the way we use it it is safe. (With a windscreen, on a large area of granite... ) But of course not everyone is this careful, and it is not easy to turn it off, so that must be why. The Inyo National Forest site is pretty clear that only certain types of stove (gas, pressurized liquid fuel or jellied petroleum, whatever that is ...) We have ordered an Optimus Crux, thanks for all the info. on likely consumption.
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Re: Gas Canister Stoves Question

Postby HikeSierraNevada » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:26 am

After some quick research, I find the regs are unclear and ambiguous about the most common types of fuel and stove alternatives in use. They specifically allow "jellied petroleum" which seems to mean "Sterno" fuel, which is actually a jellied alcohol. Does anyone have a stove that burns "jellied petroleum?"

Some alcohol stoves have simmer features which can extinguish the flames if fully closed, there's your "valve" but the regs say nothing about a valve.

"Pressurized liquid" fuel is allowed, although flare ups are a common issue - much more dangerous than spilling an ounce of alcohol. Technically, an alcohol stove is a pressurized liquid stove, it just operates at a very low pressure differential, but it's the same physics - the liquid fuel vaporizes and the resulting gaseous mixture burns through port holes driven by a pressure difference (higher pressure within the stove than externally). The liquid alcohol does not actually burn. I'd hate to argue this to a jury, but it illustrates how the regs are unclear.

No mention of Esbit fuel tabs, which does not flare, spark, spill, or spread.

The NFS needs to get up to speed with the latest products out there, apply some common sense (the most difficult part) and be more specific. I would expect different answers from whoever you happen to get on the phone on any given day.

And one last rant: Regulations should be based on risk backed up by science. They should clearly prohibit or allow certain fuels (e.g. wood), or stove types (e.g. BBQ grills), or some combination, and/or include general prescriptive requirements (e.g. no sparks, spills, combustible fuel with 3ft radius etc etc). This is way too much effort for understaffed and underfunded bureaucrats to fix. Play it safe, there's too much at stake.
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Re: Gas Canister Stoves Question

Postby OzSwaggie » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:03 am

Oooh Almost There I hope you are wrong about no stoves by the end of summer. There's a limit to how much trail mix and granola I can bear!

Still, if it means keeping forest fires down, I'll munch granola, I guess!

I have to confess that when we were new to backpacking we did have some experiences with our early alcohol stoves that make me blush to recall. Luckily we always have plenty of water on hand when any kind of flame is involved, so we didn't set any fires (!) I'm sure there are lots of inexperienced hikers/campers taking to the trails this summer who have a similar learning curve ahead of them. (I must say rangers always talk to us about bear canisters, toilet paper etc when we pick up our permits but I've not had much questioning about our stove or cooking intentions!)

I'm sure there are hazards with other types of stoves used by inexperienced folk, as well.
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Re: Gas Canister Stoves Question

Postby AlmostThere » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:06 am

HikeSierraNevada wrote:
And one last rant: Regulations should be based on risk backed up by science. They should clearly prohibit or allow certain fuels (e.g. wood), or stove types (e.g. BBQ grills), or some combination, and/or include general prescriptive requirements (e.g. no sparks, spills, combustible fuel with 3ft radius etc etc). This is way too much effort for understaffed and underfunded bureaucrats to fix. Play it safe, there's too much at stake.


They are based on actual causes of actual forest fires. Alcohol stoves and campfires have caused many.

Can not count the times we have rolled up to an empty campsite and found live embers, and doused them before moving on.
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Re: Gas Canister Stoves Question

Postby HikeSierraNevada » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:33 pm

AlmostThere wrote: They are based on actual causes of actual forest fires. Alcohol stoves and campfires have caused many.

Can not count the times we have rolled up to an empty campsite and found live embers, and doused them before moving on.

We're definitely not talking about campfires here, so "live embers" should not be grouped in the same sentence with alcohol stoves. Campfires are the first to be banned in a dry year, and they're banned permanently in some wilderness like Desolation and of course above treeline at about 9,600 ft or so most everywhere.

If anyone has data relating particular stoves with wildfires, that would be interesting.

Anyone find a stove that runs on "jellied petroleum," one of the fuels that are allowed?
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Re: Gas Canister Stoves Question

Postby AlmostThere » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:00 pm

Fires caused by camp stoves?

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ ... s-at-7-673

An alcohol stove caused one of the biggest fires in recent history in southern California. I remember reading about it but google news won't go back far enough to find the articles.
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