What temp rated quilt do you use in the Sierra?

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alpinemike
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Re: What temp rated quilt do you use in the Sierra?

Post by alpinemike »

I may fall outside the norm but I use an EE Engima 6 foot length but wide for the width. The rating is 10 degrees on it. I figured a little wider is better since then I can tuck it around me if it indeed gets cold. The Enigma also uses a sewn footbox which I know helps with getting out the drafts and the warmth in.

I have used this in the fall and the winter actually. Got down to 15 degrees at Colby Lake this past September and it was quite damp so you could really feel it. But I slept warm and toasty with the exception of my feet, which are always cold. I just needed my down booties at that point. I recall just having a baselayer on and would have been perfectly fine is the temps dropped to 10 since I had a Down Vest and Ultralight summer down jacket.

I have used this quilt on snow quite a few times now and never had any issues staying warm. I use a Thermarest Neo Air All Season which isn't as warm as the Xtherm but still plenty warm for me on the snow. I won't really ever want to deal with temps below 10 during the Winter (although I have quite a few times, hence I decided a 10 degree quilt is plenty for me during the fall, spring, and winter.

During the summer I use a WM Summerlite 32 degree mummy bag and love it to death.
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longri
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Re: What temp rated quilt do you use in the Sierra?

Post by longri »

I've heard only good things about Enlightened Equipment quilts. I take it that their products are of excellent quality and they appear to be very reasonably priced. It's not clear that it's worth sewing your own quilt unless you have specific design requirements that they don't offer or you just want to do it for the fun and reward of it.

Ratings are a funny thing though. On the EE website they say they use ratings that "are similar to the EN Lower Limit rating". That suggests they are different in some respect, but they don't bother to elaborate. Are they even lower? The EN Lower Limit rating is the windless temperature at which a fit, 25 year old man will be able to sleep without waking due to cold. It's not a conservative rating.

Looking at the EE website I was disappointed that they don't have specifications for the fill weight or approximate loft. Given the squishy nature of temperature ratings, I think those are far better metrics to use. EDIT: They are there; I missed them.
Last edited by longri on Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ericZ
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Re: What temp rated quilt do you use in the Sierra?

Post by ericZ »

I do not believe EE's ratings are LOWER than the EN lower limit. On the contrary, i've read minor rumblings regarding their rated temps. But i simply do not know on either point. Too many variables, including the reviewers themselves. Which is why I turned here since I hike in the Sierra. I was not looking for a definitive answer, just a polling of sorts.

Though fill power choices are listed as 850/900/950 on the main model page, more fill ratings and loft informations is offered under their Sizing and Specs link. for the Revelation:
https://support.enlightenedequipment.co ... Revelation

since i've been using a 15 degree down marmot bag for years and have been comfortable, i was considering the Revelation in the 10 degree (for buffer) in the 900 loft, as a custom, in the colors i choose. Regular/wide. i do not camp in wind-swept areas, but i might here and there in the coming years. Time is running out for seeing what i would like to see.

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longri
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Re: What temp rated quilt do you use in the Sierra?

Post by longri »

Thanks for the link to their specifications page, I had missed that. I also overlooked their "made to order" pages as well as a bunch of other good stuff. I take back what I said about being disappointed in lack of information on their website.

Back to the ratings.

My homemade quilt has 11.9oz of 900 fill down and the shell is made of a 10d fabric similar to what EE uses. Mine has a sewn footbox but no zipper. Total weight is 18.6oz. Those statistics match the EE Revelation 20°, Reg/Reg, 900 fill option pretty closely. Based on that comparison my quilt should have a rating closer to theirs, which is of 20°F.

I'm not a cold sleeper, but even when my quilt was brand new I know it wasn't suited for 20°F. No way, not even close. Granted, the EE Revelation is likely constructed better overall than my quilt. But I really can't imagine how it could possibly be that much warmer.

Here it is in 2013, atop the fabric I was getting ready to cut in order to make a copy of the quilt for my wife:

Image


My Western Ultralight has 1/3 more down (@850+ fill so effectively 26%+ more fill). It's a mummy bag with a hood and is also rated at 20°F. It's far warmer than my quilt, I am certain of that. Is the EE Revelation 20° 900 fill model really made so much better that it can match it?

I doubt it. I think the marketing guys at EE won the argument when it came time to decide how to rate their quilts. But at least they put the raw details on their website.

As for cost, the EE Revelation 20° 900 reg/reg is listed at $330. The current price for the materials for my quilt is $240. So it's only $90 less expensive, assuming one values their own labor and time at zero. It sure doesn't pay, at least not moneywise, to sew your own quilt.
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Re: What temp rated quilt do you use in the Sierra?

Post by dapperdave »

My wife and I use a 10F Enlightened Equipment Accomplice Twin quilt, we moved to this from WM Ultralite bags.
Quilts are a lot more comfortable than bags at temps above their rating, and the weight penalty for more insulation is minimal.
We've used our quilt in temps between 10 and 60F and have been very happy with it. On our most recent trip, we were hit by the storm that Wandering Daisy mentions in her "Hunker or Bail out" thread. We were warm at just over 20F (measured by mini thermometer) wearing full fleece underwear and gloves and summerweight hooded down jackets.
Don't underestimate the effect of your sleeping mat insulation as you get down towards 20F, an R-value of around 5 is good.

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Re: What temp rated quilt do you use in the Sierra?

Post by freestone »

dapperdave wrote: We were warm at just over 20F (measured by mini thermometer) wearing full fleece underwear and gloves and summerweight hooded down jackets.
Don't underestimate the effect of your sleeping mat insulation as you get down towards 20F, an R-value of around 5 is good.
Yes, be prepared to wear extra down clothing to stay warm and a good high R rated pad is also a good idea. I think the 900 fill will give you a lighter quilt (maybe an ounce?), but the rating is still 10 degrees. The wide cut is a good idea, that will reduce the chances of a draft.

If i had it to do all over again, I think I would have gone with Z Pack's hoodless, zipperless bag. It has all the wight savings of a quilt without the hassles of attaching it to the pad etc. Sometimes I think the concept that the amount of down that you lay on and actually compress is a little overstated.
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Re: What temp rated quilt do you use in the Sierra?

Post by mschnaidt »

I switched to an EE Revelation this year. 10 degree, 850 down, long, extra wide with 20D fabric on the outside. 29.5 oz. I got it on their annual Black Friday sale at 10% off. I went with a 10 degree quilt because I'm starting to sleep colder now that I'm in my late 50's. I'm 6'1" and 200 lbs. I chose the larger size so that I could tuck it around and even under me in colder conditions. I'm a 3 season backpacker and rarely see temps below 30.

The lowest temps I have seen so far with the quilt were low 30's maybe high 20's. My mattress' R value is 4.4. I slept warm with only a t-shirt, shorts and a wool beanie. What's surprising to me is the wide comfort range in varying temps. On warmer nights (low 60's) I had it unzipped and draped over me and was very comfortable. It's easy to vent or ease my foot or leg out if I feel too warm.

In colder temps I had the footbox zipped up, cinched down and used the lower strap. I tried the upper strap a couple of nights and didn't like it. I felt that I was fighting the quilt. Using just the lower strap I am able to easily "fine tune" my comfort and slept great. With a down jacket, fleece long underwear and wool socks I'm pretty sure I would be comfortable in the teens.

After 4 trips this season I'm very impressed with my Revelation and am glad I went with the 10 degree and larger size.
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Re: What temp rated quilt do you use in the Sierra?

Post by longri »

Sleeping with a down jacket and inside a tent? You can sleep with just a plastic sheet if you've got decent ground insulation and enough clothing on.

The EN test assumes you have a very warm pad (R-value ~5) and that you're wearing a hood (EE apparently used their down "Hoodlums" for tests) but are otherwise dressed only in base layers. It also assumes zero wind.

So it would be akin to cowboy camping on a perfectly still night. Well, except that I'll bet the lab has a roof and so the radiative loss is a lot less. So maybe it's like cowboy camping on a perfectly still night beneath trees... except with a much warmer pad than most of us use other than in winter. And you stay in a nice tuck all night, never rolling. So maybe it's not quite like anything most of us do. Maybe it's just a way to compare with other bags -- assuming the other manufacturers use the same rating methodology.

A thread I found on backpackinglight: Is Enlightened Equipment temperature rating accurate?. A couple of quilt manufacturers posted on that thread, including Tim Marshall, the founder of EE. He seems like a very thoughtful guy.

It's worth a read.
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Re: What temp rated quilt do you use in the Sierra?

Post by Wandering Daisy »

Why are you limiting your camping in the Sierra to 10,000 feet or under? There are entire huge basins that are in the 11,000 foot range (such as the wonderful upper Kern). Personally, I would go for a bag or quilt that would work for elevations up to 12,000 feet. Also, September and early Oct are often wonderful times to be in the mountains, when day temperatures can still be warm but night temperatures can drop into the teens.

Probably because I started backpacking/climbing in the Pacific NW and BC Canada and then many years in the northern Rockies, I really hesitate to consider ANY of my clothing as part of the insulation for my sleeping system. I have had to continue climbing through storms that got most of my layers wet or damp enough to reduce their effective insulation and the ONLY saving grace was my 0-degree sleeping bag! On the other hand the closest I have been to getting hypothermic was caught in a downpour on Colby Pass in the Sierra. Those few close-calls in the Sierra make me still a proponent of a totally separate sleeping system insulation. My old WM Super Antelope is a 5-10 degree bag (before they had women-specific bags). For me it is the equivalent of a 15-degree bag for the normal male. Yes, it is more than needed for Sierra summer conditions but I rarely regret having it.

I am not a quilt user, but I would think that the R-factor of the sleeping pad is more critical than with a sleeping bag. Keeping my head and neck warm is critical for me. How does that work in a quilt? Any draft down the back of my neck immediately chills me.
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Re: What temp rated quilt do you use in the Sierra?

Post by Wandering Daisy »

I guess the question I have about quilts, is that if you have to use a down jacket to make them work at 20 degrees, is not the total weight of the jacket and quilt the same as an equivalent 20-degree sleeping bag? If so, why the quilt vs a sleeping bag? Quilts have never made a lot of sense to me once night temperatures get below freezing.

The coldest temperature I have slept in is -40 degrees, on snow, in a tent, super still night. You do not even want to know the weight of the gear needed for that! I was in a double bag with my heat-bomb husband- would have froze by myself! Which brings up the point that sleeping in a tent solo is colder than if another person is in the tent with you. If we bring our dog (a VERY furry border collie) that adds even more heat (as well as that wet-dog smell). The old saying - a two dog night!
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