New cave discovered in Sequoia | High Sierra Topix  

New cave discovered in Sequoia

Topics related to peak bagging, rock climbing and bouldering in the foothills and high country of the Sierra Nevada. Be sure to also check out the Information Booth forum category to learn from / see if you can contribute to a profile for High Sierra 13'ers, 14'ers and cross country passes.
User avatar

New cave discovered in Sequoia

Postby mountaineer » Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:20 pm

Recently, a new, massive cave complex was discovered in the Kaweah River watershed. From the pictures in the below link, it appears to be quite spectacular. What absolutely burns me is that none of us will ever have access to it. It is being reserved for a select few to explore. This is a total crock of you know what. It is on public land and all of us own it. I guess they should have just put a gate across the entrance to Yosemite to lessen the impact. Elitists snobs who think they are better than the rest of us irk me. I have a notion to find this place and go in anyway...hopefully before they can get a gate up.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/09/24/MNGFTLBKUH1.DTL



User avatar
mountaineer
Founding Member
 
Posts: 651
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:35 pm
Experience: N/A

User avatar

Postby Rosabella » Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:34 am

What an interesting article, and how exciting. As I was reading it, my first reaction was...OK, let the scientific world close it off as they document it, record the findings and manner and types of formations, and whatever else they need to do in a "pristine" cave finding... and then open it to the public.

But.... what was upseting about this article was the comment in the second-to-last paragraph stating "No more than a few dozen people will ever see Ursa Minor, and those who have will never forget it". The WILL EVER was shocking. As you pointed out, Mountaineer, the cave is located in a National Park and I'm sure all efforts going into it now are funded with tax dollars.

Hopefully, this article was short-sighted. I don't have a problem with developing a plan to open it to the public - I don't necessarily think they should just throw the doors open to the public and take the chance of it being destroyed by over-zealeous explorers or vandals... and it takes time to put controls in place i.e. Carlsbad Caverns and the caves in South Dakota, etc.

Anyway, it'll be intersting to follow up on this.
User avatar
Rosabella
Founding Member
 
Posts: 372
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 7:58 pm
Location: Washington State
Experience: N/A

User avatar

Postby mountaineer » Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:40 am

I just get tired of the elitist attitude...and the attitude that everybody that comes to the parks is a bumbling idiot intent on destroying the land. You are always going to have a few fools and vandals, but just learn to deal with them. Don't shut everything down and restrict us respectful people just because someone in the crowd might mistreat something. With that attitude, we might as well shut down everything but the city streets. Here is a cave my dad co-discovered in the 1950's, it is still open to whoever can find it and has the gonads to explore it.
Image
Image
Image[/i]
User avatar
mountaineer
Founding Member
 
Posts: 651
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:35 pm
Experience: N/A

User avatar

Postby TehipiteTom » Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:44 am

Rosabella wrote:What an interesting article, and how exciting. As I was reading it, my first reaction was...OK, let the scientific world close it off as they document it, record the findings and manner and types of formations, and whatever else they need to do in a "pristine" cave finding... and then open it to the public.

But.... what was upseting about this article was the comment in the second-to-last paragraph stating "No more than a few dozen people will ever see Ursa Minor, and those who have will never forget it". The WILL EVER was shocking. As you pointed out, Mountaineer, the cave is located in a National Park and I'm sure all efforts going into it now are funded with tax dollars.

Hopefully, this article was short-sighted. I don't have a problem with developing a plan to open it to the public - I don't necessarily think they should just throw the doors open to the public and take the chance of it being destroyed by over-zealeous explorers or vandals... and it takes time to put controls in place i.e. Carlsbad Caverns and the caves in South Dakota, etc.

Anyway, it'll be intersting to follow up on this.

I don't know if the 'will ever' is factual, or just somewhat sloppy writing by the reporter.

I really don't have a problem with the Park Service doing whatever it takes to make sure this amazing natural feature isn't destroyed. (Vandalism is a very real concern, unfortunately; so is the impact of too many people all at once.) If that means keeping out the public entirely, too bad...but I'm okay with that. I hope they can open it to the public at some point, if that's compatible with preserving the cave, but I really don't think that's the most important thing.
User avatar
TehipiteTom
Founding Member
 
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:42 am
Experience: Level 4 Explorer

User avatar

Postby ERIC » Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:35 pm

Rosabella wrote:Hopefully, this article was short-sighted.


Hope so. Closing it off for a while is understandable, in my book. But FOR EVER?? Weak...
New members, please consider giving us an intro!
Follow us on Twitter @HighSierraTopix. Use hashtags #SIERRAPHILE #GotSierra? #GotMountains?
Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HighSierraTopix
User avatar
ERIC
Your Humble Host & Forums Administrator
Your Humble Host & Forums Administrator
 
Posts: 2909
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:13 am
Location: between the 916 and 661
Experience: Level 4 Explorer

User avatar

Postby Snow Nymph » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:08 am

Cool photos, Mountaineer! :D
Expose yourself to your deepest fear; after that, fear has no power, and the fear of freedom shrinks and vanishes. You are free . . . . Jim Morrison


http://snownymph.smugmug.com/
User avatar
Snow Nymph
Founding Member
 
Posts: 2041
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:43 pm
Location: Santa Barbara & Mammoth Lakes, CA
Experience: N/A

User avatar

Postby pcase » Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:10 pm

mountaineer wrote:I just get tired of the elitist attitude...and the attitude that everybody that comes to the parks is a bumbling idiot intent on destroying the land. You are always going to have a few fools and vandals, but just learn to deal with them.


Mountaineer, in principal I agree with you that there are way too many restrictions in National Parks such as quotas, BASE, Hangliding, Guided Climbs etc.....but caves are really a different matter. Remember that a goal of the Parks is preservation and maintenence for FUTURE use be it scientific use or recreational use. I don't see the park's view as elitist in the least on this particular issue.

I think when it comes to caves vandalism and bumbly idiots are but a small part of the whole picture.
    -Human contact in caves invariably means an increase in overall cave temperature...usually a bad thing. No matter how well intentioned.
    -Human contact usually means oil in places where oil doesn't belong either from direct skin contact or skin to cloth to cave contact...1000's of years handiwork destroyed in seconds.....caves are among the most fragile ecosystems anywhere...Human presence in the smallest amounts is a MAJOR disruption. Caves may be the one place where your breath actually kills.
    -Most caves are not laid out for easy human access....that means crawling, bumping, pushing, ropes, jumars, beeners, dirt, germs and micro organisms being brought into a closed ecosystem that has done well for thousands of years specifically because it was CLOSED ...it's like bringing a bag of measles and a jack-hammer to a nursing home.
    -There are archeological concerns that need to be considered before people start crashing about....
    -Then there's the fact that 27 new species were discovered in 2 Sequoia Caves in the last 5 years that exist nowhere else on earth....do we really want human intrusion????Is it desirable even in small controlled groups???
    Some caves are open to the public, some are closed ....some are gated some are not...there are 230+ caves in the region that are known....most people know of 2 or 3...The USGS stopped showing caves on Topos with the 7.5 minute series for a reason.....the caves on the maps were getting thrashed. It wasn't a few idiots, it was a few generation of idiots.
    -The point is that there's lots of good policy reasons to prohibit access....and I can't disagree...They closed Lascaux in France and created a duplicate because human heat along with some mechanical issues was allowing a cave destroying fungus to grow....Bottom line is that time and time again....Human + Cave = destroyed cave....even in highly restricted caves this is generally true.
    -If you need proof you can go to clough or paradise cave and see the broken beer bottles and broken stalagtites-mites...if you can find them and if you can get in.


Here's the park's cave management plan:
http://www.nps.gov/seki/naturescience/u ... ave_mp.pdf
Here's their other page on Cave theory/management:
http://www.nps.gov/archive/seki/snrm/ge ... gement.htm

The parks could be criticized for a lot of things.......cave management is one of things they've done pretty well on.
That's just an opinion though, and I definitely understand your anger at their overall elitist tendencies.

PC ouut
User avatar
pcase
Topix Novice
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:10 pm
Experience: N/A

User avatar

Postby Advntr_inxs » Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:11 pm

pcase wrote:
mountaineer wrote:I just get tired of the elitist attitude...and the attitude that everybody that comes to the parks is a bumbling idiot intent on destroying the land. You are always going to have a few fools and vandals, but just learn to deal with them.


Mountaineer, in principal I agree with you that there are way too many restrictions in National Parks such as quotas, BASE, Hangliding, Guided Climbs etc.....but caves are really a different matter. Remember that a goal of the Parks is preservation and maintenence for FUTURE use be it scientific use or recreational use. I don't see the park's view as elitist in the least on this particular issue.

Here's the park's cave management plan:
http://www.nps.gov/seki/naturescience/u ... ave_mp.pdf
Here's their other page on Cave theory/management:
http://www.nps.gov/archive/seki/snrm/ge ... gement.htm

The parks could be criticized for a lot of things.......cave management is one of things they've done pretty well on.
That's just an opinion though, and I definitely understand your anger at their overall elitist tendencies.


PC ouut




Everything you said is right on PC.

Not opening a cave to the public just means that it won't be a "show cave" like Crystal Cave, or Boyden, etc. Caves, which are “open” to the public, have trails and lights installed, and they receive heavy traffic due to that fact.

If you really wanted to see that cave up close and personal, as well as many other caves, which are not open to the public you would first have to become part of the caving community. You'd have to have a genuine interest in conservation and preservation of these fragile environments.

If you were willing to sign up as a joint venturer with the CRF and do some volunteer work (cleaning formations, helping to survey, helping to dig even) that is one way for you to see many caves that are not "open" to the public. Including this one.

I'm sure though that Ursa Minor has a long list of people who'd like to get in there and it might be years before a novice in the community actually got in. :crybaby:

I've done some amount of volunteering with CRF "Cave Research Foundation" and they're a bunch of great folks. They will take you caving if you're serious about caving and serious about conservation. Their main concern though is as you mentioned PC, is preservation of these fantastic karst systems that cannot be fixed if damaged.

It makes perfect sense to keep regular tourists out.

~Randi
User avatar
Advntr_inxs
Topix Newbie
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:09 pm
Experience: N/A

User avatar

Re:

Postby davantalus » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:11 pm

mountaineer wrote:it is still open to whoever can find it and has the gonads to explore it.

Aww! You got me all excited! I did the figured it out and come find the cave isn't even in California! :(
User avatar
davantalus
Topix Newbie
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:52 pm
Experience: N/A

User avatar

Re: New cave discovered in Sequoia

Postby East Side Hiker » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:04 pm

Eventually they will have to let people get in there to see it - at least in guided trips. They're being careful for the time being.
User avatar
East Side Hiker
Topix Regular
 
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:10 am
Experience: N/A

User avatar

Re: New cave discovered in Sequoia

Postby Bad Man From Bodie » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:36 pm

WOW....screw the gubment....go explore the geology!
User avatar
Bad Man From Bodie
Topix Regular
 
Posts: 357
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:46 am
Location: Lee Vining/Reno
Experience: N/A

Re: New cave discovered in Sequoia

Postby Cross Country » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:04 pm

I believe pcase made a good case. On the other hand Randi actually wrote a lot to back up mountaineer's comments about elitism although seemingly wanting to do the opposite. By in large I agree with mountaineer. At times I tend to be elitist (and embarrass myself) and despite this, I agree with mountaineer.
Cross Country
Topix Fanatic
 
Posts: 1119
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:16 am
Experience: N/A

Next

Return to Peak Bagging / Rock Climbing / Bouldering



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests