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Cross Country Route

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Re: Cross Country Route

Postby quentinc » Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:26 pm

George, do (can) they ever charge people for rescues? Particularly the "stupid" rescues?



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Re: Cross Country Route

Postby AlmostThere » Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:47 pm

Yosemite SAR bills medical insurance for medical services provided. Not sure about SEKI but it wouldn't surprise me if they did the same. Beyond that, I don't believe they do. I've read about places back east that have done so.

Our county search and rescue does not, nor would they ever. Most "stupid" calls are merely due to ignorance - of the realities of what they're trying to do, of their own limits, of what to do when lost....
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Re: Cross Country Route

Postby rlown » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:29 pm

what about a chopper ride? that has to be billed somewhere? they're not cheap.
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Re: Cross Country Route

Postby gdurkee » Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:45 am

It's pretty rare that agencies or even counties charge for a SAR. I've occasionally heard mutterings that someone ought to be charged, but know of no actual cases (though it's not something I'd necessarily know about). The Sheriff or ranger might charge a person with some violation if there was one. There's some state back east that was talking about charging and did bill someone. A county might charge the county the person is from, but I'm not even sure if that's true anymore.

The philosophy is that you don't want people waiting to call for help such that things are going to be somehow worse for the rescuers or the victim by delaying. Or not calling at all and dying as a result.

Some parks will bill for an ambulance if a park ambulance picks you up at the helibase to then meet another one that takes the person to the hospital. For a few years, there was an attempt to bill for helicopter time, but it was stopped. If I remember right, it was because that was considered a 'service' along with anything NPS does to help visitors.

When people get, say, lost they're doing something unexpected. That is, an experienced person says "boy, was that dumb." But to the person making the mistake, when you talk to them about their decisions, they seem perfectly reasonable until they realize "oooops." So the problem is how egregious are the series of mistakes that led to the SAR.

Many parks have a SAR fund and even, sometimes, a brochure you can cheerfully give to the injured person. I usually forget to give them one, but Yosemite Search and Rescue gets some major donations that way and Sequoia Kings gets some.

Which is all to say that, mostly, it's your tax dollars at work.

George
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Re: Cross Country Route

Postby Jimr » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:08 am

Where could one get this brochure if they wanted to contribute to the SAR fund?
What?!
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Re: Cross Country Route

Postby East Side Hiker » Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:24 pm

You gotta be kiddking me. Sept 2010 had some of the coldest Sept weather in memorry say after Sept 15th. I went over Taboos Pass about 9/15/10 and it was so cold that everything froze, even with my fantastic Mtn Hardware stuff.
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Re: Cross Country Route

Postby East Side Hiker » Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:26 pm

Jimr - just approach the SAR folks and ask to join them. They will welcome you, and your support.
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Re: Cross Country Route

Postby maverick » Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:26 pm

EastSideHiker please check you messages, I sent you a pm a couple a weeks back.
HST= Wilderness Adventurer who knows no bounds, except for their own imagination.

Have a safer backcountry experience by using the HST ReConn Form 2.0, named after Larry Conn, a HST member: http://reconn.org
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Re: Cross Country Route

Postby gdurkee » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:25 pm

Somehow, I missed a whole part of the thread. I pretty much agree with East Side Hiker's: "I give up" -- yet....

So this location is a ford? I imagine after going that far I would scout many miles if necessary up or down steam searching for downed trees or other narrow spots to cross. If I recall right Juncton Meadow has long sections of calm "surface" water which in a worst case scenario you could begin your ford up stream and let the stream carry you as you move across.


Do you mean the trail before you get to Bubbs Creek Junction Meadow is a high angle snow early season? If that creek is not fordable at the trail at least you have it going for you that you can follow the creek down the canyon until you find a place to cross and be on route.


"So this location is a ford"?!?!?!!? Are you absolutely clueless AND crazy? Calm surface water? Worst case scenario begin your ford upstream?! Jeez, what's the point? This is the Kern River. It's an Order 5 river at that point and it'll be spring runoff. There are people here with a lot of experience who have been trying to, reasonably gently, tell you about some of the problems you could encounter. You say you hiked the JMT? What did you learn on the way? I remember reading The Cactus Eaters, about a couple hiking the PCT maybe 10 years ago, and thinking "How could a guy hike so far and learn so little?"

It's one thing to look at a flat piece of paper -- a map -- and dream up excellent adventures. It's another to have hiked at least some of that terrain and be unable to imagine it in other conditions -- to have apparently learned nothing from 220 + miles of trails and streams. Some years ago, I wrote the Job Hazard Analysis for backcountry rangers. Number 10 of my list of recommendations was "Travel with humility."

Mountaineering, at its best, is about a humble relationship to terrain and learning. There is no room for arrogance or ego. A deep respect for the land and the overwhelming power of rivers, snow, weather, and rock is at the top of the list of all of us who spend a lot of time there. We listen to each other and, however reluctantly to a dream trip, often have to say, ok, this isn't the time.

Dude: this isn't the time. Hiked the JMT before and want to see something new? Oh, the horror! To have to repeat part of one of the most incredible journeys on the planet. I've hiked for over 40 years on many of the same trails over and over again. It's ALWAYS new. Always!

Oh lordy, quickly Prissy, I do feel the vapors coming on again -- a wee drop of bourbon and branch so's I can struggle on. Tomorrow's another day!
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Re: Cross Country Route

Postby balzaccom » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:36 am

Now that, Mr. Durkee, is a wonderful post!
Balzaccom

check out our website: http://www.backpackthesierra.com/
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Re: Cross Country Route

Postby BSquared » Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:23 pm

gdurkee wrote:It's pretty rare that agencies or even counties charge for a SAR. I've occasionally heard mutterings that someone ought to be charged, but know of no actual cases (though it's not something I'd necessarily know about). The Sheriff or ranger might charge a person with some violation if there was one. There's some state back east that was talking about charging and did bill someone.

I believe that was New Hampshire, which passed a law in 2008 permitting such charges. My understanding is that they have rarely actually charged anyone, and when they have done, the charges a pretty nominal. There was a USA-Today article in 2009 about a scout who got injured and lost and who was to be charged for his rescue, but as I understand it, the local rescuers (most of whom are volunteers) are constantly after the state to change the law and/or not enforce it.
—B²
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Re: Cross Country Route

Postby East Side Hiker » Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:50 pm

Mr. gduerkee, I agree an excellent post.

Let me say again - do a bunch of short trips, learn the terrain, don't rely on a "flat map." Then do what you want. You can not have the mindset that people will rescue you. It's the WILDERNESS! Its vast and its cruel, and its gentle. But it can snow 6" in June... or anytime during the "summer."

I've had a plan to got to Tehipite Valley for a long time. I've abandoned my plan due to the winter weather pattern, and am going to Baja instead. There is a huge world out there to wonder about...
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