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Cross Country Route

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Re: Cross Country Route

Postby maverick » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:48 am

I would like to say that I am very impressed with our forum members in the way
they have rallied to open this persons eyes to the faith that may await him.
Seeing current rangers, former rangers, SAR members, folks with 30-40+ years
of backcountry experience, and members with 1000's of x-country miles under there
belt coming together for this cause is humbling, I would like to say thank you for
solidifying my belief that this is the best forum, period!

To Almostpicasso, welcome to HST, and George D. nice see you back!

Now the important question: George, when is the Tioga webcam going to be up
again?
I don't give out specific route information, my belief is that it takes away from the whole adventure spirit of a trip, if you need every inch planned out, you'll have to get that from someone else.

Have a safer backcountry experience by using the HST ReConn Form 2.0, named after Larry Conn, a HST member: http://reconn.org



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Re: Cross Country Route

Postby Jimr » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:36 am

I suspect, that much of the sound advice you are receiving IS being considered, even though, on the surface, it wouldn't seem so. You are determined, so hopefully, you will incorporate much of the advice into your endeavor. Nobody here suggested you not challenge yourself because you may get hurt. We wouldn't be hiking cross country in the mountains, looking for remote wonders, if we didn't enjoy the challenge. What is being said is: Be informed, Be realistic, Be aware, Be flexible, Live to tell the story to your grandchildren.

I look forward to your trail report.
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Re: Cross Country Route

Postby RoguePhotonic » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:10 pm

Well, since you're cheerfully not heeding the voices of experience here, I think the main hope is that you'll find the snow conditions and stream crossings such a major thrash that you'll rethink the trip very early on.


It's certainly possible since the first couple of weeks are the hardest anyway while you become fully adjusted to life on the trail.

I've already been considering what some plan B's are if I have to turn around in certain locations.

I can't imagine crossing the Kern at Junction Meadow then.


So this location is a ford? I imagine after going that far I would scout many miles if necessary up or down steam searching for downed trees or other narrow spots to cross. If I recall right Juncton Meadow has long sections of calm "surface" water which in a worst case scenario you could begin your ford up stream and let the stream carry you as you move across.

Same with going over Junction (really high angle snow) and getting to Cedar


Do you mean the trail before you get to Bubbs Creek Junction Meadow is a high angle snow early season? If that creek is not fordable at the trail at least you have it going for you that you can follow the creek down the canyon until you find a place to cross and be on route.

stay on the JMT until the conditions feel right and you're confident with snow and the stream crossings are manageable


I'd rather not because I did the whole JMT in 2009 then hiked on allot of it again in 2010. It's certainly beautiful but I want to explore new areas. It's really going to come down to what happens on the go.

I have never, ever, never, never, never been on a rescue where the person said "throw me back, I'm OK with dying."


Of course not lol. I certainly respect the notion of how much it would suck laying in a place with a broken leg. Whether or not your ok if you died is not even an issue because you will be there for some time before you actually died. I'm ok if I slip fall and get killed but a broken leg in my mind will be far worse then to die on the trail. I don't have any medical insurance and I WILL die before I allow myself to become a slave to endless medical debt. I know SAR is free but when I got to the hospital I would have to go over a break down of what each action of medical care will cost. If that cost was too high then it wont be done.

his motto is "We don't rescue smart people."


That's kind of a poor moto for people who get hurt just walking down the trail or get bit by a snake or get cerebral edema.

I suspect, that much of the sound advice you are receiving IS being considered, even though, on the surface, it wouldn't seem so. You are determined, so hopefully, you will incorporate much of the advice into your endeavor.


Indeed it is and I will. My goal is exactly as you put it. I will go I will try I will not do anything I am not comfortable with. If I have to reroute I will, if I have to wait I will. The only aspect that my hike is not completely flexible in is the closing dates of some resupply locations but i know of a couple places that are year round or open until late October. I could do week long loops out of the same areas while I wait for more snow melt and I get into better shape.
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Re: Cross Country Route

Postby balzaccom » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:53 pm

I think you may have missed the irony here: "his motto is "We don't rescue smart people."

That's kind of a poor moto for people who get hurt just walking down the trail or get bit by a snake or get cerebral edema."

In fact, it's pretty hard to be bitten by a snake. Many times, you have to pick it up.

And I don't think there are very many cases of cerebral edema in the Sierra...the elevations are simply not high enough for that to happen very quickly.
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Re: Cross Country Route

Postby RoguePhotonic » Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:31 am

In fact, it's pretty hard to be bitten by a snake. Many times, you have to pick it up.


I disagree completely. You do not need to pick up a snake to get bit. People have been rushed to the hospital many times on the trail because they simply stepped over a rock or log and a snake bit them in the back of the ankle. I myself have almost stepped on a rattlesnake just walking down the trail.

I think it's true cerebral edema is not as common in the Sierra as pulmonary edema probably is but it does happen. Just last year a man had to be air lifted out of the Cottowood Lakes area from pulmonary edema.
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Re: Cross Country Route

Postby Jimr » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:49 am

Straw men are easy to knock down, but it's pointless; they're made of straw. Look up the informal fallacy straw man.

The original assertion is "It's pretty hard to get bitten by a snake, many time, you have to pick it up."

The restatement is "You do not need to pick up a snake to get bit." This implies that the original argument was you need to pick up a snake to get bit.

That was not said or implied. The fact is, the great majority of snake bites are a result of someone handling, harassing, or threatening a snake that feels cornered with no other choice but to strike. Given a choice, a snake would much rather avoid.

But, this was in response to a prior straw man responding to. "We don't rescue smart people", to which a case was made regarding snake bites and cerebral edema. The motto was not coined based on the minority of incidence derived from unforseen/uncontrollable circumstances . It was coined based on the majority if cases that involved people who were ill-informed, ill-equipped, ill-skilled to be doing what they were doing, or made poor decisions, all leading to an avoidable situation.

To argue down good, sound advice with a pile of straw is to invalidate the good, sound advice. Further discussion becomes pointless. I'm glad you confirmed that you are taking the advice seriously, it would be foolish not to. There is far too much experience here from back country rangers, technical climbers, locals who have spent half of their life in the remote recesses of the Sierra Nevada to ignore their advice.

I look forward to your TR and pics.
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Re: Cross Country Route

Postby TahoeJeff » Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:38 am

Man, the Cabin Fever is a little strong right now. I'm not as hard core as a lot of you seasoned veterans here but it seems as if some of you are being kind of harsh on this guy (in a couple of different threads). I read his 2010 TR on the Whitneyzone board, I think it was, and it appears he has some chops. Did anyone else review that before commenting? Is this going to be the level of discourse here 'till the snow melts and we can get out? Just askin'....

BTW Rouge, great little video of catching a nice Golden out of Wallace!
Many of us have been so brainwashed over the years — by sheer repetition, rather than by either logic or empirical tests — that statistical disparities are automatically taken to mean discrimination, whether between races, sexes or whatever.
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Re: Cross Country Route

Postby rlown » Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:42 am

yeah, i read some of it as well. Not that it's a bad plan. Just a questionable year for such a plan.
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Re: Cross Country Route

Postby Mike M. » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:28 pm

We were all young once. (In my case, a long, long time ago.) Personally, I envy all the time Rogue can take from work. It will be quite an adventure. I trust he has the sense to pull back if he finds himself in over his head.

I remember my first true cross-country attempt, back in 1975. I was solo. Planned it from my parent's kitchen table, my trusty topo maps spread out. I had a few year's backpacking experience under my belt and wanted to spread my wings. What did I choose for my first cross country adventure? The Enchanted Gorge, with a second leg that took me over "easy" Cartridge Pass.

Read about it here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4775

I had a wonderful and memorable time and was hooked.

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Re: Cross Country Route

Postby Electra » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:50 am

Short time lurker needs to chime in..I think i may know many of you, this is dan braun. I am one of the founders of southern yosemite mtn guides, owner of the evergreen lodge and way back when, got the yahoo cali high sierra group started...enough background..

When I first read this, like many, I was jealous of this trip. WOW! Lucky guy that Rogue, what a trip!! As I read on and thought about the winter we have had, what was being said by Rogue, past experiences after winters like this, etc..I was concerned enough to speak up.

All I really have to say is that attitude/approach is everything and this young mans approach WILL get him into trouble. I had the same attitude in 1991 when after Miracle March (25feet snowfall), I continued on alone from Kennedy Meadow on my PCT trip (first person to do so that year, DUH!) and was in-snow for twenty miles before needing to climb whitney and resupply in lone pine. I ran out of food the day before climbing the west face of whitney (june 10) and then got caught in a slab avalanche at 12,900' and fell about 700 feet. A lucky self arrest left me about 15 feet from going over a cliff and with no skin on the back of my right lower leg (i was in shorts as it was 70 degrees!). I managed to get to trailcrest and hobble out to a lone pine hospital with the assistance of others....

My point, i was young and had to learn from this experience as i didn't heed the call of others(pct hikers skipping the sierra till later, family, rangers, etc..) as my attitude was 'go for it'...

I wish Rogue well on his adventure and i am still envious but I hope he 'adjusts' his plan as trouble will find him and when it does, i hope he heeds our warnings and plays it safe. Just being in the Sierra is a gift so look around when high water or dangerous snow looms and find an alternative route or just pitch the tent for the night and admire your surroundings. Peace and happy trails. db
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