Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

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ExploreABitMore
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by ExploreABitMore »

maverick wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:03 pm The answer I got was, that because of the pandemic, the Visitors Centers will open slowly when allowed, and they will not be at the same time, which would make the re-implementation of the walk-in system complicated. The closest we will have this year to walk-in permits, are the no shows that become available the same day at 10:30. :\
Coming into this discussion kind of late, but am I understanding correctly that the desire is to keep the online reservation system with the permits getting emailed to us (like last year), but go back to ONLY the walk-ups as they were before COVID? In other words, show up in person for walk-ups and get them off the online system?

If so, count me in.
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Yosemite NP Superintendents Response

Post by maverick »

Yosemite NP:
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I don't give out specific route information, my belief is that it takes away from the whole adventure spirit of a trip, if you need every inch planned out, you'll have to get that from someone else.

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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by erutan »

That sucks on Yosemite, though I guess it makes sense for mid-April. We’re possibly on the verge of a fourth surge now with the new variants floating around (and there’s grocery stores without a single worker wearing a mask in small towns in the SW). Perhaps by July enough people will be vaccinated it can switch back. Hope SEKI holds firm.

It'd be interesting down the road if there's some shift in permits, so not the old or new normal. Perhaps 50% are reservable 6 months in advance (and post-covid no shows will be released same day), 25% are with a lottery system two weeks in advance, and 25% are walk up. That'd give a range of options for people, and the no shows would stack into walk-ups for day of permits as well.

If reserved in advance permits still require physical pickup that'd eliminate the need for a more complex deposit and drop off stub / differing lengths of refundability / fines etc.

I found last summer aggravating but doable. Not sure I would have done Dragon Pass without looking at my options and seeing Golden Trout Lakes available and not much else once and rolling the dice, so some good came out of it I suppose.

I assume use will go down after COVID, but Emigrant was getting SLAMMED last summer. Tons of fires, mounds of TP & wipes in XC camps, packers with trawling motors in Buck Lakes... they only had 3 rangers for the district as some of their regulars didn't come in that summer... I could see them going to a quota system, at least for the major trailheads that point south of 108.
Last edited by erutan on Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by maiathebee »

erutan wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:10 pm Perhaps 50% are reservable 6 months in advance (and post-covid no shows will be released same day), 25% are with a lottery system two weeks in advance, and 25% are walk up. That'd give a range of options for people, and the no shows would stack into walk-ups for day of permits as well.
This is a good idea.
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by erutan »

The numbers on that are off the top of my head, but something like that - it’d be interesting to get data on how many no shows there are for the 6 months out reservations and/or reduced group sizes. Maybe 40%, 30%, 30% would work better. 40%, 20%, 40% would be preferable to me, but I’m not sure how equitable it is.

6 months feels like a LONG time out. Maybe make them start at 3 months like BLM does in AZ/UT? That’s enough time to plan your vacation, but not as much time for life plans around them to change. I think keeping online reservation systems but making people pick up permits would be ideal as it actually lets you get numbers on no shows and let’s rangers talk to people in person (and let’s be honest there wasn’t a ton of LNT last summer in popular spots).

I don’t think I ever had a reserved in advance permit before last summer, but I do see the value for people with stricter schedules that need to map out their vacation time months in advance etc, or are coming from far away and don’t want to deal with the uncertainty (and they’d be committed via travel reservations anyways). It felt weird getting a 10 day trip two weeks out not knowing what the weather would be like...
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by michaelzim »

@erutan Seconded re "good suggestions!"

We need to keep an eye on the post-Covid landscape and how much things "stay the same" v. what may be most beneficial for backpackers, et al. I do know that the numerous conversations I have had with NF supervisors about all this permits stuff show me that they are very aware of the issues. On the whole, when I have got to know the fine points of what they are up against (like huge people pressure/demand on the East Side entries) I can see why changes are needed. Though again, how valid some of those will be post Covid is questionable and our feedback will be needed.

Also please bear in mind that for Sierra NF and their recent change-over to rec.gov they will be wanting user feedback in fall once we all see how it shakes out. So far the West Side entries have been spared the zoo along the Hwy 395 corridor. Long may that last!

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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by ericmcornelius »

Also late to the party - new to your lovely little community here - but everyone should read this:

https://www.outdoorproject.com/articles ... blic-lands

Someone here said money talks? That just about sums it up - don't expect walk-ups to return post-Covid without significant grassroots pressure.

Also, as one of those horrible people employed in tech, if you think recreation.gov permits for popular trailhead entries aren't being snapped up by bots, I have a lovely bridge for sale.

The current system is no more than an opportunity for middlemen to extract their concession fee for natural resource access as far as I'm concerned.

Interestingly enough, if you were to actually go without a permit and get fined by a ranger at least that money would actually go to the USFS, instead of a large consulting firm based in DC.
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by windknot »

Thanks for the article. Interesting, but not surprising. Money talks, indeed.
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by erutan »

The article wasn't super persuasive to me - I had already assumed that the $6 reservation fee was going to whatever organization maintains rec.gov and the $5 per person use fees go to local agencies. Ticketmaster sets their own reservation/convenience fees, and event organizers set the fees for the concert etc - but they detail some byzantine process to find that secret out and then hide the name of their source etc. At least it's $5 per person in the Sierra up to 14 days vs $5 a night in the SW, Olympic NP, Glacier NP, etc outside of the $15 SEKI charges iirc.

The article repeatedly makes the point that people thought they were protecting the wilderness from overuse by using rec.gov, but it's not like quotas changed when reservation systems did, or that they were impossible to implement without it. It's... an odd argument.

The non-refundable $6 fee to enter a lottery for half dome or whitney is pretty **** up though.

I was chatting with a ranger at the mono basin visitor center who was having trouble printing out my permit and I remarked I missed the old walkups and he mentioned they weren't coming back. :(
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Re: Petition To Change Back To Pre-Covid Walk-in Permit System

Post by giantbrookie »

erutan wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:50 pm
I was chatting with a ranger at the mono basin visitor center who was having trouble printing out my permit and I remarked I missed the old walkups and he mentioned they weren't coming back. :(
One thing to note going forward is that this won't necessarily uniform across all of the Sierra Nevada National Forests and wilderness areas. I think many of us have found quite a variation in permitting policies from NF to NF and NF to NPS this year and there was variability in the pre-COVID days, too. I don't have a crystal ball, but I'll bet we'll see some variability in policies when the pandemic is finally in the rear view mirror, be it 2022 or 2023.

For example, Sierra NF long handled their WP permits separate from recreation.gov, and if I recall my permitting this year, they handled things electronically with their own system. In the walk up days, Sierra NF was always more flexible than other NFs I dealt with and I wouldn't be shocked if they bring back the walk up system in 2022 or 2023. Then there is the walk up day before versus day of: in 2019 Toiyabe required walk up for the day of, whereas the other NFs allowed pick up the day before entry. For an early start the day of (one has to be at the RS and wait for them to open) is obviously not as convenient as allowing day before as well as day of. On top of that are different rules for entry via different wilderness areas as I found for Hoover v Emigrant this summer (causing me to switch entry to Hoover).

Anyhow really hope we get our walk up permit system back for at least some NFs. Whereas there are folks that come from far and/or have limited day-off flexibility so that they need to be able to reserve far in advance, those of us living closer to the Sierra benefit from being able to do the walk up for many reasons, not the least of which being able to monitor the weather forecast (usually one week out) and/or fire situation (the emerging reality now) and act and plan accordingly.
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