Grab your bear can or camp chair, kick your feet up and chew the fat about anything Sierra Nevada related that doesn't quite fit in any of the other forums. Within reason, (and the HST rules and guidelines) this is also an anything goes forum. Tell stories, discuss wilderness issues, music, or whatever else the High Sierra stirs up in your mind.
blaybelay wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:21 pm
I had a terrible experience last year while climbing Langley up New Army.
I just came back from that area and had a similar experience. My wife and I managed to make it up to Solider Lake relatively early in the afternoon to find a small party camped at the obvious spot. Knowing there were most likely a few parties behind us, we crossed the "marsh" to the north end of the lake and set up camp at a fantastic, and relatively secluded spot. About an hour later, I watched a party of 27—TWENTY SEVEN—teens and dads walk up toward the lake. I heard one of them ask, "Where should we set up?" and to my horror an adult responded "Wherever you want." Predictably, the group walked towards the most obvious spot and proceeded to set up tents within feet of the established party. So big was their group that they spilled out over toward the trail and multiple tents were set up on fragile grass less than five feet from the water's edge.
Having just read this thread before my trip, I seriously weighed my options. I was upset because it was either a: 1) organized group trip (i.e. scouts) or 2) an illegal party practicing illegal methods. Either way, the "leaders" were modeling an irresponsible wilderness ethic that these young men may perpetuate.
I ultimately decided to leave them be.
levi wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:25 am
they added a principle "Be considerate of others" that essentially tells people to "not camp directly next to others" and "speak softly."
I'm glad they added this. Too often in situations like the above, there is no thought behind how one impacts not only the environment but others experience of that environment.
giantbrookie wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:05 pm
I don't say anything to such offenders because it is far more likely to result in ill feelings or worse, than to result in a positive change of behavior for the perpetrator. From my own side I don't need the aggravation or ill feeling from a confrontation with such persons when I'm in the backcountry and I do not have the authority to enforce anything, so I simply don't say anything.
I draw the line when folks are using soap to wash their dishes or bodies in the stream or lake. It is amazing how much suds gets generated by these activities. Give it a few minutes to transport and rest against 20- 30 yards of shoreline, then I visit and point out how even an individual transgression has that magnitude of impact. So far it has worked (at least while I was around). The campers felt the shame and acted as if it were a learning experience. I don't marn them, I just draw the their attention to the extended slick of soap suds, and let the soap slick do the talking. Less finger pointing, more problem solving.
My personal approach is to approach them as a buddy looking out after them to save them a fine.
There was a group of friends at one of the lakes in Kearsarge Basin - I went up to one who was setting up a tent half on grass and explained the regulations, it was a heavily trafficked area for rangers, they could get fined etc. One of them was "hah I told you so" to his buddy setting up the tent and we had a nice conversation for a few minutes and they moved their tent up onto some sandy ground nearby. I also brought up how cold air pools low, I think views of lakes are a little nicer being above them, etc.
There was a family camping on grass like 10 feet from thousand island lake - I mentioned it was a high traffic area and they were breaking all the rules. One of the adults mentioned they were outside the 1/4mi zone and didn't think the footpath was a trail - fair enough, but the standard distance from water and grass still mattered and I had seen a ranger on the trail earlier (I didn't) and it's a hefty fine. They started packing up. Usually if a group is really settled in I mention it but don't really bother pushing.
Probably my most aggressive encounter was when I was at Ediza there were 4 tents on grass, 15 feet from the trail and maybe 40 from shore in the protected no camping zone mid day with laundry lines spread everywhere etc I passed when heading up to Iceberg at 2pm after dayhiking around Nydiver. I asked to see their trip leader he was "downstream fishing" - I explained he signed a permit and was legally responsible for following the regulations and they were breaking all of them. Most of them were sort of a mix of brushing me off or at least pretending to be concerned - one guy said I wasn't a ranger and he didn't appreciate me talking to them, I replied I didn't appreciate him either lol. A group coming down Iceberg had seen them and was annoyed - they we chatted a bit and they said they'd tell them they bumped into a ranger earlier in the day that was coming down hah. When I looked over my shoulder it looked like they were breaking camp.
My most annoying recent experience was when we stopped early at Big McGee lake due to weather and ended up with 6-8 tents popping up with 200 feet of us. One group of 3 was under 50ft from us in direct line of sight of our tent, I went over and mentioned they had to camp on durable surfaces (one tent on sand, one half, another on grass) one guy yelled back the dirt was too small, I shrugged and walked off.
Last edited by erutan on Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I usually do not do anything, except when safety is an issue. I found an illegal smoldering campfire last year and put it out. I strongly suspect the fellows I ran into down the trail were the culprits. I said nothing. Years ago walked up behind a line of about 30 people, literally on each others heels, on the JMT in LeConte Canyon. Evidently the large group got 2 separate permits but then linked up. I said "excuse me", passed each one, and then gave the leader a disapproving glare.
I have broken many "rules" myself so feel it is a bit hypocritical to "discipline" others. Environmental damage is dependent on many factors, such as early wet grass, vs hard as rock late season grass, group vs single person, water drainage at the campsite more important then set distance, and if camped in or on a sensitive area, damage can be mitigated, such as really minimizing walking around. I have been places where following the "rules" were simply not possible. If I have to set up the tent on grass, I then put my cook area away on rocks and dirt. I always make an effort to minimize my impact and ideally follow the rules when possible.
Yeah, I've definitely broken one of the three rules when setting up camp. The Grand Canyon of the Tuolumne has very few sites 100 feet from trail, sometimes a day just runs late and I'm setting up camp by headlamp alongside trail (that's the least impactful rule - if I'm hours from where people will likely be camping and it's late I'll plop down 20 feet off trail and leave early), and there are the rare times when I'm deep in the backcountry and will camp within 100 feet of water on a cool peninsula along a lake etc if it's a durable surface (sandy cup surrounded by granite). I likewise am considerate about where I cook when skirting best practices. Last summer I think I only had one night (12 people within 200ft at Big McGee Lake) where anyone else was in visual or audible range of camp, so am unlikely to destroy an area but still do my best!
I'll spend some significant effort to find a durable surface 100 ft from water even if it ends up being a bit weird:
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When basecamping I do try to tuck away / put up my Big Agnes boulder looking rain fly on to not be that one bright colored tent in an isolated basin for the next person. Sort of a mix of aesthetic LNT and just being considerate.
If someone is setting up camp hours before sunset with 10 feet to the trail one side and 10 feet from water I'll give them a heads up - if I see/hear someone setting up camp 100 feet from the trail when dusk has faded I don't say a thing. Along the JMPCT I give up unless it's just egregious like at 1000 island lake.
I've tried the "hey, I wanna save you a fine" approach a few times and only had one negative or aggressive reaction FWIW.
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"I heard that mountain lion are attracted to groups of 16 people or more"
"I just saw a HUGE mountain lion 15 min ago, you might want to get that dog out of here"
"You guys are camped pretty close to this lake where I have photographed mountain lion drinking from"
"Mountain lions are attracted to music"
"Mountain lions are attracted to campfire smoke"
"I wouldnt suggest camping next to me....I am here to photograph the mountain lions, and they are EVERYWHERE!"
"Did you see that malnurished crazed looking mountain lion?? I am outta here after I have my lunch!"
On sparky's note, what about backpacking with a pet bobcat? It could eat whenever you're on the PCT and you wouldn't need to pack food or have it impact local ecosystems.
I still remember quite vividly an incident from the early 80s. I had led my small group to a spot near a lake, but we were well over the required distance away, and the surface was all sand and gravel. We were in the spot listed on our wilderness permit. I looked across the lake and saw a solo guy walk in and drop his backpack. His spot was about six feet away from the lake and it was on a nice grassy area. Mister Ranger showed up packing a sidearm. He approached the guy from behind, and the guy was not going to be able to escape except by going into the lake. The ranger knew damned well that this guy was illegal in several respects, and he knew him, having had several run-ins with him. The ranger asked to see his permit, and the guy claimed that he must have lost it. The ranger gently rested his right hand on the sidearm. He asked to see some identification, and the guy claimed that he left his wallet back in his car. At that point, the ranger had decided that he was going to "walk the guy out," so he informed him about the required distance from the lake and the prohibition on tenting on top of grass. By that time, I had my group watching the whole thing unfold across the lake, and there was applause when the guy and the ranger left.
