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bobby49
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Re: dogs

Post by bobby49 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:30 pm

Wandering Daisy wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:25 pm
The easiest command for a border collie is "lie down" (because it is part of their herding instinct) with the hand signal, flat hand, palm down, arm moved quickly downward.
Yes, I tried all of that standard stuff out of the book. Nothing happening.

Apparently the dog breeder did not see much herding instinct, so the dog was not selected for much training. The dog did not have the black and white appearance of a Border Collie show dog, so it was not selected for the dog show ring. The dog did not have any maternal instincts from two litters of puppies, so the dog breeder just sold her off as a pet. She is a real tail-wagger.








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Wandering Daisy
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Re: dogs

Post by Wandering Daisy » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:38 pm

By the way, our dog never has instantly run to us when we say "come". She trots up to us slowly. You have to decide what battles to fight. We decided that as long as she came, she did not have to do it running to us. That is one thing that made her flunk one of her dog obedience classes.

As for "training" a dog not to chase wild animals, we just trained her to obey commands. We are lucky in that we encounter lots of animals on our daily walks, squirrels, wild turkeys, crows, deer, coyotes. After consistently saying "no" when she started to run, she figured out that she was not supposed to chase the animals. You have to show a bit of anger when you say "no". But then praise them when they obey. The hardest thing to break was her desire to chase cars. Again, fight the priority battle. Once we allow her to "slink" but not chase, she was OK. So she does about a 2-4 foot "fake chase". This seems to satisfy her herding instinct.

But like Russ said, each dog is different and has its own personality. You have to figure out what works and then be consistent and stick with it. Start training with the most important things. It is overwhelming for a dog to get too much thrown at them at once.

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Re: dogs

Post by Wandering Daisy » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:40 pm

When you say you "tried" a command, did you then physically make the dog get into the position? Words alone won't do the trick at first.

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Re: dogs

Post by bobby49 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:11 pm

Wandering Daisy wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:40 pm
When you say you "tried" a command, did you then physically make the dog get into the position? Words alone won't do the trick at first.
For example, the DOWN command by voice and by hand cue and by trying to force the dog's body down. The dog braces the legs so that there is no DOWN. COME ought to be easy, if I can lure the dog to come to a treat. It doesn't happen. The only way that I can get the dog to come to me is by slapping my hip. I tried to maneuver the dog into PAW, but it fights it. Same with BEG. I'll keep at it. It can't get any worse. I've tried a clicker, but there is nothing positive to click for.

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Re: dogs

Post by Harlen » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:32 pm

bobby49 wrote:
Suppose a stream crossing is pants-pockets-deep, and I have trekking poles. I can get myself across without drowning, but what about the dog?
I Iearned the hard way to have the dog on the downstream side on rough water crossings. I once got swept along with our golden retriever which was leashed to a harness upstream of me. Strange thing was that this golden was a tremendous swimmer, but in the Buckeye Creek rapids, she became inert. With Bearzy, I put him on the downstream side, and he swims like hell. Important if you anticipate hard river crossings to take the dog harness on those trips. Dogs can slip out of neck collars. The harness is key to hauling and lowering dogs on cliffs- impossible with a neck collar.
Best of luck with the dog- they are lovely companions in the mountains!

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Re: dogs

Post by Harlen » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:01 pm

Daisy wrote:
The hardest thing to break was her desire to chase cars. Again, fight the priority battle. Once we allow her to "slink" but not chase, she was OK. So she does about a 2-4 foot "fake chase". This seems to satisfy her herding instinct.
Interesting about the car chasing Daisy. We looked after a border collie for Scottish friends, and it just scared the shite out of us the way it chased cars! She would hunker down at the very edge of the road as the car approached, and then just tear after it for a hundred meters or more- right on the back wheel! We finally just took her hiking with us all day, everywhere till her owners returned. We thought it was some anxiety deal due to their absence, but when they returned they laughed at us, saying that she chases every damn car- no fear! Luckily this was on a quiet island in the Outer Hebrides, so not too much traffic.

I would have thought the famously intelligent border collies wouldn't risk death so, but perhaps they are just that confident.

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Re: dogs

Post by Wandering Daisy » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:52 am

At least the dog was smart enough to go after the back wheel, not the front wheel. I walk our dog without a leash. If we have to walk along a busy street I have to put on the leash. There seems to be a threshold of car traffic where she can subdue her herding instinct, but after that she goes crazy. She is more inclined to chase diesel powered pickup trucks. Never has chased a bicycle. I think the headlights of a car look like big eyes to them. Border Collies are very eye-to-eye oriented.

Bobby- your dog may very well know what you are wanting it to do and is just in a dominance battle with you, or being stubborn, or insecure at this point. It is typical "teenage" dog behavior. 4yrs old is a bit unusual. Our dog was stubborn like just before 2 yrs old, and then one day out of the blue she decided to obey every command! Just keep up the training. I have never done it, but some people swear by "clicker training". Your dog is probably not that impressed with doggie treats as rewards. It may be worth it to take the dog to a professional trainer for a few sessions.

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Re: dogs

Post by rlown » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:35 am

And rewards don't always have to be treats. A behind the ears rub for good behaviour goes a long way. If the "stubborn" phase lasts more than two weeks, I think Daisy makes a good suggestion about some professional training, but that isn't for Lucy; It would be more for you and being consistent.
I tend to use hand signals and a command. I drop the command after he learns the hand signal.

When I got Simba he was a backyard dog as the owners didn't want the dog (gift from their son who then moved out.)
The adoption group said he was aggressive and in some situations, that was true. Food aggression around other dogs, treat aggression around other dogs. When he met my moms dogs at first that was a problem (inadequate primary socialization :) )
I was at my mom's for a month, and they all started to get along after two weeks. He and her heeler became running friends; Simba would run and Missy would chase. Biggest kick was seeing Simba look back at a full tilt and smile at Missy.

Upon receipt of Simba, the handler told me to feed him by hand the first couple days to establish where food comes from.

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Re: dogs

Post by bobby49 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:14 am

The Border Collie just did her first walk for a half-mile. I walked in front and let her set the pace since she needed to sniff all of the landscaping along the way for the first time. That's a start. She got a good rub around the ears for that, plus another treat that she ignored. I guess progress is slow. She ignores the clicker. I need to get her to do one thing obediently before I have something to click on.

Yes, when Lucy and I go to the garage where her bowls are, she hears me drop the dry food into the food bowl, so she associates the pattern of the garage and the bowl and the sound with me.

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Re: dogs

Post by kdbobo2 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:22 pm

I'm a newbie to backpacking but not to dogs, and especially not with the herders. I have a bc myself who went on her first trip last September and carried a pack with her food and some supplies. We were in the Emigrant Wilderness, she was always on leash (except swimming), as I worried about wildlife. My girl is super fearful in the city (she was an "unadoptable" rescue, but this is sort of common with bc's), but looooves the wilderness. We went on a busy weekend and ran into a lot of other people and dogs, but everyone was super respectful with their dogs. We didn't have any problems, except I did wish I had trained her to wear booties as I waited too long to put the musher's secret (paw wax) on her and she was pretty worn down on her pads. Border collies are super easy to train-they live to learn new things, but respond best to positive, reward-based training. Work on a strong recall before you go, as you never know what can happen and you want to make sure she'll always come to you. I used the foam pad for my girl to sleep on, and she burrowed into my puffy jacket and slept on top of my head one night (it got cold). She's getting her own wrap this year ;)
Also, just read your other posts. BC's do NOT respond well to being forced into position. They also won't take treats (as any dog wont) or food rewards if stressed. Build up your bond with her through play and fun stuff first, and then go slow. "Load" the clicker by clicking and then giving treat (seemingly for nothing, but she will associate it with good stuff). Build on the associations slowly. The come command is the hardest command, as they need to want to come every time. So it should be worth it every time ;) Dominance theories are old-school and outdated. No dog is trying to out-dominate you...they're just trying to figure out what you want. Sounds like she was used in some sort of backyard breeding operation? Poor girl, thanks for giving her a new life! For some great tips and tricks, go to Kikopup's page on youtube (she's a well known trainer): https://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup

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