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Who owns this lake? Yosemite or Emigrant?

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Re: Who owns this lake? Yosemite or Emigrant?

Postby Wandering Daisy » Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:27 am

It is fairly common for small lakes on watershed boundaries to flow both directions. Check the date of the Google Earth image. If it is June at peak snow melt or water flows, the flow one direction may just be seasonal. If water has flowed seasonally, then sometimes vegetation stays green and so it appears as a drainage. I suspect that late season both directions dry up. If you were to camp on its shores, without a bear can or with your dog, and a ranger came up to you, he would have a hard time proving you were in Yosemite! Particularly as a layman, all you really have to go on is a map, and if maps conflict, there is no proof one way or the other. Never likely to happen though.



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Re: Who owns this lake? Yosemite or Emigrant?

Postby maverick » Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:09 am

Regardless of what surveyors or map makers have done unless there has been subsequent legislation the boundary described in the legislation is the boundary.


Exactly, if Yosemite comes back saying the lake is inside the park border, will send them the link you posted, and we will see what they have to say.
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Re: Who owns this lake? Yosemite or Emigrant?

Postby Tom_H » Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:06 pm

Wandering Daisy wrote:It is fairly common for small lakes on watershed boundaries to flow both directions. Check the date of the Google Earth image. If it is June at peak snow melt or water flows, the flow one direction may just be seasonal. If water has flowed seasonally, then sometimes vegetation stays green and so it appears as a drainage. I suspect that late season both directions dry up. If you were to camp on its shores, without a bear can or with your dog, and a ranger came up to you, he would have a hard time proving you were in Yosemite! Particularly as a layman, all you really have to go on is a map, and if maps conflict, there is no proof one way or the other. Never likely to happen though.


Though there is no administrative boundary issue, Peeler Lake is an example of a watershed boundary lake with two outlets. Due to the small dam, when there is high enough inflow, Peeler outlets in two directions as it straddles the Sierra Crest. The natural outlet at the NE corner flows eastward to Robinson Creek and Twin Lakes. The second at the NW corner feeds westward into Rancheria Creek when there is enough inflow from the glacially fed streams to the SE.

Rancheria Creek feeds to Hetch Hetchy and (originally) the Pacific, though most winds up pumped to SF. Robinson Creek feeds to the West Walker, the Walker, then Walker Lake, though, again, most of the water is diverted and never reaches the mouth.
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Re: Who owns this lake? Yosemite or Emigrant?

Postby maverick » Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:54 pm

ok. keep us in the loop. He deserves a memorial.


Next year Russ:

The U.S. Board on Geographic Names will consider proposals for assignment of the names or nicknames of deceased persons to
geographic features in the United States and areas under the jurisdiction of the United States.The Board will not consider names
that commemorate or may be construed to commemorate living persons. In addition, a person must be deceased at least 5
years before a commemorative proposal will be considered
.
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Re: Who owns this lake? Yosemite or Emigrant?

Postby maverick » Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:07 pm

Yosemite's answer:
I cannot provide a conclusive answer for this lake due to the small size of the lake and the generalizations our boundaries utilize. As far as I know, this area has not been surveyed so is all approximated. In order to determine if the lake is in or outside of the park, the user must zoom in closer than the accuracy of the data. According to the updated Yosemite Administrative boundary provided by the NPS Lands office, it is just at the boundary of the park and may be partially within the park and partially outside of the park. Here is the disclaimer they provide with their data:

"The data is intended for use as a tool for display and general GIS analysis purposes only. It is in no way intended for engineering or legal purposes. The data accuracy is checked against best available sources which may be dated. NPS assumes no liability for use of this data. Boundaries from the Land Resources Division have separate polygons for each type of unit."

If overlaid with the boundary dataset that I have, it appears the lake is outside of the park. Given the nature of these data, I must include the following disclaimer for our data as well:

The National Park Service shall not be held liable for improper or incorrect use of the data described and/or contained herein. These data and related graphics (i.e. GIF or JPG format files) are not legal documents and are not intended to be used as such. The information contained in these data is dynamic and may change over time. The data are not better than the original sources from which they were derived. It is the responsibility of the data user to use the data appropriately and consistent within the limitations of geospatial data in general and these data in particular. The National Park Service gives no warranty, expressed or implied, as to the accuracy, reliability, or completeness of these data. Although these data have been processed successfully on computer systems at the National Park Service, no warranty expressed or implied is made regarding the utility of the data on other systems for general or scientific purposes, nor shall the act of distribution constitute any such warranty. This disclaimer applies both to individual use of the data and aggregate use with other data. This map includes data from external sources that the NPS is not responsible for. The inclusion of external data, however, should not be construed as an endorsement by NPS of their content. Please be aware that we do not control or guarantee the accuracy, relevance, timeliness, or completeness of this outside information.

Here is a simple screenshot of what I'm referring to, with the Lands Office boundary in red, but again zoomed in past the usefulness/accuracy of the dataset, and Yosemite's internally-maintained one in green:
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Boundary Lines.jpg
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Re: Who owns this lake? Yosemite or Emigrant?

Postby kpeter » Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:14 pm

So...once you subtract all the legalese, the real answer is "we don't know"? Fascinating. China and Russia have fought border wars over questions like this, although maybe Kashmir and India/Pakistan is the better analogy, given the alpine nature of that border.

It would really be interesting if the boundary had genuine significance. I'm thinking of a state boundary in which recreational marijuana is allowed on one side and not on the other, or some such. Or is there something of significance to the border? Is there some activity that is allowed in the Emigrant Wilderness that is not allowed in Yosemite, or vice versa? Dogs? Fires? Anything?
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Re: Who owns this lake? Yosemite or Emigrant?

Postby maverick » Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:24 pm

Is there some activity that is allowed in the Emigrant Wilderness that is not allowed in Yosemite, or vice versa? Dogs? Fires? Anything?


These are perfect reasons to continue to pursue this, dogs for sure, hunting not allowed in Yosemite, but do not know about that part of Emigrant (Russ?), but will find out. :thumbsup:
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Re: Who owns this lake? Yosemite or Emigrant?

Postby rlown » Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:36 pm

hunting is allowed in Emigrant Wilderness: https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/Portals/0/I ... ne-Map.gif

If you zoom in I think it's zone D-6. Only special closures (such as wildfires) and being a National Park restrict hunting.

The real question is would a hunter go that far without stock to hunt. It's a long way out carrying a deer on your back. Trust me on that... :o

You don't really have to worry about hunters until Mid/Late August (bowhunting) or Sept (rifle). June/July/early Aug would be fine for backpacking.
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Re: Who owns this lake? Yosemite or Emigrant?

Postby maverick » Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:54 pm

Great, thanks Russ.
Now I have to track down this Land Program Manager who can do boundary adjustments, otherwise it's dealing with DC, which I would prefer not to spend to much time on.
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Re: Who owns this lake? Yosemite or Emigrant?

Postby Wandering Daisy » Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:55 am

Well, it is winter and we are bored! This is a fun and interesting piece of trivia, but in the big picture not very consequential. I have worked with GIS and map overlays, and unless someone actually goes out there to survey it (and a GPS survey is not adequate), and that would cost $$$$, it will not be resolved and has a .000001 chance of actually happening. I think I will go to that lake with my dog and wait until a ranger comes up and gives me a citation! :wink:
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Re: Who owns this lake? Yosemite or Emigrant?

Postby maverick » Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:30 am

I think I will go to that lake with my dog and wait until a ranger comes up and gives me a citation! ;)


You'll be waiting a long time Daisy, just let us know when you plan on going so we don't become concerned after not seeing you post any more. :)
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Re: Who owns this lake? Yosemite or Emigrant?

Postby maverick » Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:33 pm

Spoke to the Emigrant Wilderness Manager, explained the situation, including the 1905 boundary line established by congress, also the hunting and dog issues. He will be having a meeting with the Yosemite Wilderness Manager next week, in which he will be addressing this issue, and get back to me sometime towards the end of the next week.
Stayed tune.
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