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Re: Who owns this lake? Yosemite or Emigrant?
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:53 pm
by balzaccom
I don't know if any of you use mappingsupport.com Gmap4...pretty cool stuff.
Here's a link to it....shows that the boundary for Emigrant includes the lake....and the boundary for Yosemite bends the other way and ALSO includes the lake. ON THE SAME MAP!
Check it out. Use the t7 World Topo ESRI version...
http://www.mappingsupport.com/p/gmap4.p ... rought.txt
Re: Who owns this lake? Yosemite or Emigrant?
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:14 pm
by oldranger
maverick wrote:
Interesting Mike, but even though it was establish by Congress, that was back in 1905, wonder how many times that lake has changed sides by more present (last few decades) surveyors, and then by current GIS people. Looking forward to see what Yosemite's GIS person comes up with, and then what the Emigrant Wilderness Manager has to says.
Regardless of what surveyors or map makers have done unless there has been subsequent legislation the boundary described in the legislation is the boundary. If someone today were to rule otherwise they are usurping the decision of congress. I am still convinced that the inclusion in yosemite in some maps is simply the reflection of a drawing error that took place in the USGS office. It is practically a moot question since both jurisdictions are almost equally protected but I guess grazing could be permitted if Stanislaus NF actually realized that the area was within its domain, though not exactly prime grazing from a google earth view.
I'm sure the original description is in the Yosemite archives and that is why the Yosemite map excludes the lake. Stanislaus NF probably does not have access to that and their records are dependent on the USGS maps and their base maps for the forest probably date back to sometime after the 1956 map was made.
Re: Who owns this lake? Yosemite or Emigrant?
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:41 am
by Hobbes
Yosemite. If you take a look at the satellite view from the gmap link, you can see the drainage is south towards Fawn lake & Kendrick creek. The USGS topo appears to be drawn slightly off from the original photo surveillance. If there was just one more contour line drawn where the border is (in MyTopo), it would become more evident. Instead, it's difficult to tell which way the drainage is actually flowing unless you look at the photo.
Edit: actually, if you take a really close look at the satellite photo, you can see a bit of lower Twin lakes overflows into the mystery lake. The ridge above both Twin & mystery is much more pronounced than shown in the USGS map.
Re: Who owns this lake? Yosemite or Emigrant?
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:53 am
by bigd
Thanks Maverick for doing all the leg work to find the answer to this question.
After reading oldranger's comments, it appears the lake's owner is decided by which way the outlet water flows. Looking carefully at Google Earth, the water appears to definitely not flow towards Yosemite (Fawn lake/Kendrick creek). However, it also doesn't appear to flow towards Emigrant (Cherry Creek/Huckleberry Lake). What if the lake's water basin is small enough that it can't fill the lake enough to cause it to overflow? Then what?
Perhaps a survey in May/June is needed to conclusively determine which way the water flows?
Re: Who owns this lake? Yosemite or Emigrant?
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:27 am
by Wandering Daisy
It is fairly common for small lakes on watershed boundaries to flow both directions. Check the date of the Google Earth image. If it is June at peak snow melt or water flows, the flow one direction may just be seasonal. If water has flowed seasonally, then sometimes vegetation stays green and so it appears as a drainage. I suspect that late season both directions dry up. If you were to camp on its shores, without a bear can or with your dog, and a ranger came up to you, he would have a hard time proving you were in Yosemite! Particularly as a layman, all you really have to go on is a map, and if maps conflict, there is no proof one way or the other. Never likely to happen though.
Re: Who owns this lake? Yosemite or Emigrant?
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:09 am
by maverick
Regardless of what surveyors or map makers have done unless there has been subsequent legislation the boundary described in the legislation is the boundary.
Exactly, if Yosemite comes back saying the lake is inside the park border, will send them the link you posted, and we will see what they have to say.
Re: Who owns this lake? Yosemite or Emigrant?
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:06 pm
by Tom_H
Wandering Daisy wrote:It is fairly common for small lakes on watershed boundaries to flow both directions. Check the date of the Google Earth image. If it is June at peak snow melt or water flows, the flow one direction may just be seasonal. If water has flowed seasonally, then sometimes vegetation stays green and so it appears as a drainage. I suspect that late season both directions dry up. If you were to camp on its shores, without a bear can or with your dog, and a ranger came up to you, he would have a hard time proving you were in Yosemite! Particularly as a layman, all you really have to go on is a map, and if maps conflict, there is no proof one way or the other. Never likely to happen though.
Though there is no administrative boundary issue, Peeler Lake is an example of a watershed boundary lake with two outlets. Due to the small dam, when there is high enough inflow, Peeler outlets in two directions as it straddles the Sierra Crest. The natural outlet at the NE corner flows eastward to Robinson Creek and Twin Lakes. The second at the NW corner feeds westward into Rancheria Creek when there is enough inflow from the glacially fed streams to the SE.
Rancheria Creek feeds to Hetch Hetchy and (originally) the Pacific, though most winds up pumped to SF. Robinson Creek feeds to the West Walker, the Walker, then Walker Lake, though, again, most of the water is diverted and never reaches the mouth.
Re: Who owns this lake? Yosemite or Emigrant?
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:54 pm
by maverick
ok. keep us in the loop. He deserves a memorial.
Next year Russ:
The U.S. Board on Geographic Names will consider proposals for assignment of the names or nicknames of deceased persons to
geographic features in the United States and areas under the jurisdiction of the United States.The Board will not consider names
that commemorate or may be construed to commemorate living persons. In addition, a person must be deceased at least 5
years before a commemorative proposal will be considered.
Re: Who owns this lake? Yosemite or Emigrant?
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:07 pm
by maverick
Yosemite's answer:
I cannot provide a conclusive answer for this lake due to the small size of the lake and the generalizations our boundaries utilize. As far as I know, this area has not been surveyed so is all approximated. In order to determine if the lake is in or outside of the park, the user must zoom in closer than the accuracy of the data. According to the updated Yosemite Administrative boundary provided by the NPS Lands office, it is just at the boundary of the park and may be partially within the park and partially outside of the park. Here is the disclaimer they provide with their data:
"The data is intended for use as a tool for display and general GIS analysis purposes only. It is in no way intended for engineering or legal purposes. The data accuracy is checked against best available sources which may be dated. NPS assumes no liability for use of this data. Boundaries from the Land Resources Division have separate polygons for each type of unit."
If overlaid with the boundary dataset that I have, it appears the lake is outside of the park. Given the nature of these data, I must include the following disclaimer for our data as well:
The National Park Service shall not be held liable for improper or incorrect use of the data described and/or contained herein. These data and related graphics (i.e. GIF or JPG format files) are not legal documents and are not intended to be used as such. The information contained in these data is dynamic and may change over time. The data are not better than the original sources from which they were derived. It is the responsibility of the data user to use the data appropriately and consistent within the limitations of geospatial data in general and these data in particular. The National Park Service gives no warranty, expressed or implied, as to the accuracy, reliability, or completeness of these data. Although these data have been processed successfully on computer systems at the National Park Service, no warranty expressed or implied is made regarding the utility of the data on other systems for general or scientific purposes, nor shall the act of distribution constitute any such warranty. This disclaimer applies both to individual use of the data and aggregate use with other data. This map includes data from external sources that the NPS is not responsible for. The inclusion of external data, however, should not be construed as an endorsement by NPS of their content. Please be aware that we do not control or guarantee the accuracy, relevance, timeliness, or completeness of this outside information.
Here is a simple screenshot of what I'm referring to, with the Lands Office boundary in red, but again zoomed in past the usefulness/accuracy of the dataset, and Yosemite's internally-maintained one in green:
Re: Who owns this lake? Yosemite or Emigrant?
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:14 pm
by kpeter
So...once you subtract all the legalese, the real answer is "we don't know"? Fascinating. China and Russia have fought border wars over questions like this, although maybe Kashmir and India/Pakistan is the better analogy, given the alpine nature of that border.
It would really be interesting if the boundary had genuine significance. I'm thinking of a state boundary in which recreational marijuana is allowed on one side and not on the other, or some such. Or is there something of significance to the border? Is there some activity that is allowed in the Emigrant Wilderness that is not allowed in Yosemite, or vice versa? Dogs? Fires? Anything?